The Deeper Pulse with Candice Schutter

#97 - The Flesh of Leadership: Embodied Resistance for Collective Justice | Lesa Clark, PhD

• Candice Schutter • Episode 97

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Is embodiment a tool in the ongoing fight for collective justice? In the intro, I share how the wellness world shaped my understanding of embodiment (why it matters and what it is for) and share how two decades of navel-gazing conditioned me to be complacent in the face of injustice. I catch us up on some current events, then share a riveting interview with Dr. Lesa Clark, a strategic leader in intercultural engagement and equity. Lesa shares personal stories from her family's history and how they shaped a lifelong commitment to social justice. She and I discuss embodied leadership, the importance of integrity (vs. performativity) in DEI initiatives, and the need for collective action and courage to confront oppressive systems. Lesa speaks to the complex interplay between leadership and followership, inviting us to break free from groupthink and to embody values that foster societal change. The discussion concludes with reflections on resilience, allyship, and the pursuit of justice.

Dr. Lesa C. Clark is a strategic leader with expertise in intercultural engagement, leadership development, and equity. With over 20 years of experience, she empowers organizations and individuals to cultivate inclusive cultures that prioritize diversity and facilitate authentic cross-cultural engagement. As the former Executive Director for Intercultural Relations and Women's and Gender Equity Centers at Old Dominion University, Dr. Clark spearheaded collaborative campus-wide DEI initiatives. She developed and instructed courses centered on cultural humility, connecting this framework to cultural competency and emotional intelligence. She recently completed a three-year research project that foregrounds the leadership of Black birth workers, a designation frequently overlooked in both academic literature and professional settings. Dr. Lesa Clark demonstrates how culturally grounded ancestral practices challenge and dismantle harmful practices, advancing more responsive and equitable maternal healthcare. Additionally, her work explores the leadership of Black women in Kenya, South Africa, and the United States, offering a comprehensive, global, and historical analysis of intersectional leadership and advocacy. Dr. Clark has advanced intersectional leadership paradigms that promote inclusion, respect, and equity, envisioning and enabling the development of systems and communities in which all members are empowered to flourish, thrive, and lead effectively.

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Lesa Clark, PhD:

To me, that is embodiment. Do we allow ourselves to go there? To go to those places. Do we take ourselves to those places? And taking ourselves, of course you can say physically, but emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, educationally. Do we take ourselves to those spaces that may be uncomfortable? Maybe we've been enculturated to look down upon and not value or respect. To me that's an embodied leadership.

Candice Schutter:

Hey friends. Good to be back here with you today. Welcome to another episode of The Deeper Pulse. Just a quick heads up, some of you may have noticed that The Deeper Pulse is no longer streaming on Spotify. I made the call last week when I learned that the company has been running recruitment ads for ICE, the federal agency behind mass deportations and surveillance of immigrant communities here in the U.S. So the podcast has been pulled, only from that platform indefinitely. And if you happen to have a paid Spotify subscription, I hope you'll consider joining the boycott to help me and others send a message that we stand in solidarity with undocumented and immigrant communities who are being targeted and terrorized. I recently received a list of over 800 companies that have in some way capitulated to the Trump administration, and it's a bit daunting to say the least. But we can all take baby steps as we are ready. And I'm thinking that next step for me is going to be a separation from Meta platforms. So that's Facebook and Instagram. Especially now that I'm reading a book called How to Stand Up to a Dictator by Maria Ressa. She is a journalist who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2021 for her work safeguarding democracy and free expression. And she has been in many of the rooms where technocrats in power gather. And it has been a bit staggering to learn the degree to which the greed and heartlessness of these billionaires has been shaping world politics. I highly recommend her book. I'll link to it in the show notes. At any rate, I haven't stepped away from social media quite yet. But this is just to give you a heads up that if you wanna hear from me after the new year, and you're not already over on Patreon. I suggest popping over there just to even at the very least subscribe as a free member. Because that will automatically place you on my email list. You can also become a paid subscriber and gain access to bonus content. So you can learn more about all that over at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. All right. Moving on. Today's topic is a doozy. And I'm super excited to introduce you to my guest. But first I am hoping you'll hang with me for a longish lead in to today's conversation. Because right now in the United States, a lot of us are struggling to keep up with the daily news cycle. And sadly, most of what we're seeing is no longer overhyped sensationalism. It is an actual real deal authoritarian coup that's now moving at a pace that's hard to keep up with. And I've been thinking about this quote that's been circulating a bit lately from Naomi Schulman, who once wrote:"Nice people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly, and focused on happier things than politics.' They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away." Yeah. I remember learning about World War II back in high school. And I remember marveling at how such a heinous thing could happen. I wonder no more. Today's episode's not gonna solve the problem of fascism. But I am hoping that it will inspire each of us to zoom out, rather than in, just a bit in order to understand that embodiment is about more than mindful witnessing and self-regulation. There's no question that my understanding of embodiment was very much shaped by the whitewashed world of wellness, and truth be told, as a complex PTSD trauma survivor, I found body awareness practices personally quite liberating. If you circle all the way back to the earliest days of this podcast, you're gonna hear me waxin' poetic about how mindfulness, body awareness practices, and embodiment profoundly impacted my life. I am not here to make light of any of that. It stands. And yet, finally, at age 50, I am able to acknowledge how all knowledge was and is shaped by power. What I learned about embodiment, like why it mattered and what it was for. There was a lot of lip service around universal truth, but ultimately the practices themselves were pretty much designed to keep me endlessly navel gazing. Because the logic went something like this. If I continue to better myself, then I will become a better person. And as a better person, I will be better suited to respond to a chaotic world. It's me, calmer, self-regulated, peaceful. And never ever unruly. I was once told by a therapist that my superpower is my ability to metabolize emotion, anger in particular. Like to sit in the middle of a shit show, never allowing my feelings to bubble over or rip through me and control my responses. I think she used the word superpower a little tongue in cheek. Because in the moment she was really trying to make a point. I wasn't telling the truth about how I was feeling inside. I was spending all my energy shutting it down. Now, self-regulation is important, for sure. But to what end? That is the critical question. I had learned really early on to override my impulses. So new age wellness spaces? I was a star pupil. I understood the assignment. That the alarms sounding in my body, that it was my job to silence it, visibly, stealthly, without anyone ever knowing. And when in certain cases, the message was one that couldn't be ignored. Then it was my duty to deliver painful truths with sugarcoated temperance. I was able to name sensations in my body, label emotions clearly, tell you how my childhood trauma had shaped me into the person standing before you. Embodiment happened. But ultimately, its primary function was self-control. All of this, I was told, is a sign of mastery. This made for a pretty narcissistic orientation to life. And I'm sorry to say, a casual indifference to politics and matters of justice. I mean, I'm not proud of it, but that was me for most of my adult life. And I don't think it's an accident. Circling back to the last episode where we spoke about Michel Foucault and his assertion that modern power doesn't make us do or not do things so much as it teaches us to want to conform to what the system has in mind for us. So I guess what I'm saying is embodiment it is and can be a beautiful thing. But what matters most is what we place it in service to. Speaking of last week's episode, Dr. Wilson's research reminds us that hierarchies have, four centuries, quite literally, ruled the day. So much so that even modern leadership scholars, who claim to be basing their ideas on empiricism, often default to the invisible thro of higher-up better-than logic. But through the course of history, they've always been humans who lead in different ways. These people understood that justice means all of us. And right now, I'm thinking a lot about the seemingly dissonant relationship between justice and power, and why it is they're constantly at odds with one another. It's the reason why I personally am a bit obsessed with how power is structured. Because politics is by definition, strategic in its aim. It's about winning or maintaining power. While justice is a commitment to truth and equity. It's about making repairs and engaging in ethical transformation toward a common good. Now, in an ideal world, politics would be the means to the justice that we seek. That sounds super simple on paper. It's written into the U.S. Constitution. And truth be told, this is pretty much the promise that the heart of every culty vow I've ever taken. And if you're new here, circle back to the'cult'ure series'cause there's been quite a few. And that's the real rub, is that as soon as we start to engage with politics, we step into systems with the intention of shaping and transforming them into something more just and fair. But inevitably, what often happens, is that the systems end up shaping us. And I think politics is really a large part of the reason for that, because you've gotta play the game in order to win. And in a capitalist society, in order to rise into a leadership, position where you're the one calling the shots who can make or break justice, winning is the thing you have to do first. We see this playing out big time right now in what appears to be a sort of slow burn desolution of the Democratic Party here in the United States. While politicians draft legislation, engage in thought experiments, and try and fail to get on the same page, bodies and lives are being impacted. SNAP benefits are being canceled. Health insurance premiums are skyrocketing. And immigrants and U.S. citizens are being detained and brutalized. Take Chicago, for example, unwarranted attacks on peaceful protestors, members of the clergy, and of course journalists. And there are numerous reports of extreme negligence in ICE detention facilities where officials have long been obstructing congressional oversight. You've probably heard about lawmakers who've been physically assaulted or placed under arrest for trying to do their jobs. Following up on reports of alleged inhumane treatment inside the doors of these facilities. I read recently about a pregnant woman who was detained and held by ICE in Louisiana, who suffered a potentially unnecessary and painful miscarriage due to the neglect of medical staff. While still unwell, she was soon after deported and separated from her living children here in the U.S. No one deserves inhumane treatment, even if they are suspected or guilty of a crime. And also, in many of these cases, like what crime exactly are they guilty of? Deportations are happening to people who show up for legally, pre-scheduled immigration hearings. Small children, some of them pre-verbal, are being placed before judges. Infants in charge of their own legal defense. Boats in the water surrounding Venezuela that are being decimated by drone attacks. So far, at least 60 people have been killed. I mean, really, y'all, what fresh hell is this? It's abject cruelty. It's mad men playing politics with people's lives. There's a reason why critical theory is being banned from schools, because it requires us to look critically at the history of this country and the fact that it was born of brutality. The slaughtering of 90% of all Native populations. The abuse and forced assimilation of the children who remained. The physical and structural exploitation of enslaved Africans, who after over 200 years of indignity were emancipated for the blink of an eye before Jim Crow era politics asserted its laundered forms of racialized injustice. The Civil Rights resistance led to some critical legislation. But white supremacy found other ways to assert its dominance through the criminal justice system, for example, which to this day is fraught with bias and racial disparities. On October 23rd, the state of Alabama executed Anthony Boyd. Boyd was a 54-year-old Black man. He'd been arrested for murder in 1993, at the age of 21. Several witnesses testified that Boyd was at a party the night that the crime was committed, and there was no forensic evidence linking him to the scene. Only a single co-defendant who had been reportedly incentivized to testify against him. In a ruling of 10 to 2, a jury convicted boy of murder, recommending the death penalty. He maintained his innocence, challenged his conviction and sentence repeatedly, but without success. Not long ago, after being incarcerated for three decades, he petitioned the U.S. Supreme Court with a request for mercy regarding the arrangements surrounding his planned execution. He was to be killed using nitrogen suffocation, a torturous and rarely used approach that in the past has led to massive distress and prolonged physical and psychological agony. Citing the Eighth Amendment, which prohibits use of cruel and unusual punishment, Boyd and his lawyers requested death by firing squad. The conservative majority of the U.S. Supreme Court denied Boyd's request, refusing even to comment. All three liberal justices expressed their dissent. 13 days ago, Boyd was executed exactly as planned using nitrogen suffocation. His death was grueling. Observers report that Boyd suffered, gasping for air, for over 30 minutes before leaving this world. I hope this story is painful for you to hear. I want it to land in your body. Because embodiment means feeling all of it. It isn't just an introspective and personal pursuit. It's how we engage and respond to the world around us. The way in which the things that happen outside of us, how they land in our bones. What if allowing our body to respond to injustice isn't triggered dysregulation. What if it's a revolutionary political act? I've referenced the work of somatic abolitionist Resmaa Menakem before, who argues that racial trauma, both oppression and its perpetuation, that it lives inside of our nervous systems. And that healing requires each of us to disrupt the ways in which we have embodied racial hierarchies, the ways in which we, through our responses and lack thereof, might be unconsciously reenacting them. Disruption is messy, because it means defying culturally accepted scripts in favor of something more honest and just. Which brings me to today's conversation. I met Dr. Lesa Clark at a Women in Leadership Conference back in June. We attended a few sessions together, but we got to know each other best through long walks between our shared hotel and the event venue. And it was through these conversations that I began thinking differently about a number of things, including some things I thought I understood really well, like mindfulness, embodiment, and what it means to be committed to something larger than ourselves. For me, the insights garnered in a conversation with Lesa, they always linger. And I'm so grateful for her willingness and generosity to sit down and have this conversation with me, for you, and in service to all of us. Dr. Lesa C. Clark is a strategic leader with expertise in intercultural engagement, leadership development, and equity. With over 20 years of experience, she empowers organizations and individuals to cultivate inclusive cultures that prioritize diversity and facilitate authentic cross-cultural engagement. As the former Executive Director for Intercultural Relations and Women's and Gender Equity Centers at Old Dominion University, Dr. Clark spearheaded collaborative campus-wide DEI initiatives. She developed and instructed courses centered on cultural humility, connecting this framework to cultural competency and emotional intelligence. She recently completed a three-year research project that foregrounds the leadership of Black birth workers, a designation frequently overlooked in both academic literature and professional settings. Dr. Lesa Clark demonstrates how culturally grounded ancestral practices challenge ine dismantle harmful practices, and advance more responsive and equitable maternal healthcare. Additionally, her work explores the leadership of Black women in Kenya, South Africa, and the United States, offering a comprehensive, global and historical analysis of intersectional leadership and advocacy. Dr. Clark has advanced intersectional leadership paradigms that promote inclusion, respect, and equity, envisioning and enabling the development of systems and communities in which all members are empowered to flourish, thrive, and lead effectively. Here is my conversation with Dr. Lesa Clark. Dr. Lesa Clark, my friend. How are you today? It's so good to see you.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

It is an honor and a pleasure to be in your space with you.

Candice Schutter:

We've only engaged a few times. But we did have some marvelous walks and conversations, and I just have a deep affinity for you and a lot of respect for the work that you do. It feels really timely. We had a preliminary conversation a few weeks ago just to kind of talk about what we might touch upon today and things are moving at breakneck speed. And so thank you for agreeing to sit down with me, Lesa. I appreciate it.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

My honor.

Candice Schutter:

So since the listeners are just gonna be meeting you for the first time, why don't you just introduce yourself.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, I come from a family that really immersed themselves in tradition and storytelling. And those storytellings at the kitchen table or braiding my Aunt Helen's hair, who has this long, thick, gorgeous mane of hair, really shaped me. And watching the women in my family and how they navigate. These are women of color, multi-ethnic women, Black, white, Native American, Indigenous women whose genes connected and produced my mother. And so I come from a very unique environment where I am used to diverse perspectives. I'm used to seeing diversity. But diversity in certain settings were very harmful to my family and that also shaped me as well. Um, I remember one time, Candice, so my mom was sharing a story. Because we are judged by our outer identity and so you couldn't figure her out. I mean, what is she? I mean, we couldn't, couldn't put her in a box. You know, most people say, is she Latina? Is she Sicilian Italian? You know,'cause we lived in New York. And, um, my family ended up in a neighborhood that was predominantly Black, mostly Black, because that was a safe space for them. And I remember her telling me this story at the kitchen table. She was talking with my aunties. And so I'm the only child, so I'm listening, you know, with my adult ears, right? And she talked about a story of how she got so many times, gotten beaten up, hair pulled, and just, just pulverized by her fellow classmates because of the way she looked and perhaps maybe didn't fit in. And I began crying. And here I am, I must have been about five. And I said, mommy, mommy, I am going to grow up and I'm gonna make this world a better place so no one ever has to get beaten for how they look. You know? And I remember that.

Candice Schutter:

Hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And here I am.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Many years later, trying to make the world a better place so folks don't get"beat up" based upon who they love, based upon how they look, based upon their religion or not religion.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Et cetera, et cetera, sexual orientation. And so that really, really shaped and really put me on the trajectory of social justice and creating systems of equity and fairness. Because again, I promised my mom that I was gonna make this world a better place.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I remember that.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah. So the roots run deep for you.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Very, very, very deep. And it ran so deep. I didn't realize it, Candice, when I was embarking upon my research. And another story, another story.

Candice Schutter:

We love stories on this pod, so bring it on.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Again, I talk about my Auntie Helen, you know. And that's how I learned how to braid hair.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

In my culture, you braid hair. And we were sitting in the living room. And she was kneeling down and I was sitting in the chair just braiding, just loving. And she's like I'm gonna tell you a story. And I'm like, okay. And she began telling me the story of how I entered through the birthing process. And, um, I thought about it and off, on and off until I was talking with my committee member for my dissertation, which is on Black birth workers. And, I felt as though,'cause I've been in the academy 20 years of my life doing DEI in leadership roles, focusing on BIPOC women in the academy, in corporate America, doing research on that. Focusing on South Africa, the United States of America, and some of the other countries of how women of color have to navigate very hostile environments that's created by a system that was not created for them, right? And so, I felt a little bit insecure coming into this particular sector, maternal health,'cause that was really not on my radar. But I was so intrigued about what was happening with Black birthing individuals and the tremendous death among Black birthing women, Black birthing individuals, three times more the national rate, and also that of newborns as well. And how the medical system, again, another system that was not built for them.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

So I'm sitting there talking with my chair. And I said, I really don't know about the Black birth workers. I, you know, that's not my area. And she asked me the question, do you remember when you were born? And I'm like, what is she talking about? No, I don't remember when I was born. And it clicked, my Aunt Helen.

Candice Schutter:

Hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

My Aunt Helen's story. Now I know, how Black birthing individuals and BIPOC individuals, how they experience the birthing process, in regards to obstetric racism, obstetric violence. But I was now immersed in that story.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And I'm like, I'm on a mission. This is what I have to do. And Ursula Alvero Branch is my mother. We almost died. She was a young mother getting ready to give birth and rushed to the hospital. And the hospital served individuals, poor folk. So the services is not going to be that great, right. And the medical team is not going to be that empathetic. And she is in this cold, sterile room. And they're yelling, push, push. You need to try harder. And you know, this first time mom don't know what's going on. And come to find out I'm breach and the umbilical cord is wrapped around my neck. And, you know, they're saying, well, you need to try harder. So she, she tried to the level of exhaustion. I mean, she just couldn't. And here the more that she pushed against nature.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Because when you're giving birth and the whole birthing movement is that you follow the flow of nature, not medicalized folks, you know. Um, your body will tell you when to push. Your body will tell you when to stop. And so the pushing, pushing, pushing, right? It got to a point whereby, they medicated her against her will and they took the forceps and they went in and they pulled me out, chucked me out. It was the creator that saved my life that the umbilical cord didn't choke me. And based upon that horrific situation, my mother was no longer able to, um, have any more children. And later on she developed gynecological issues, and she died at the age of 49.

Candice Schutter:

Wow.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And so, I believe that life's challenges, life's pain, life's tragedies, if you are open, puts you on the trajectory for your purpose in this universe. And the pain of my mother put me on my trajectory. Who would ever think that I will be in this space talking about Black birthing individuals and this system that from the very beginning did not want granny midwives. Did not want women, Black women, enslaved women coming from Africa, having to take care of the community, having to take care of the village, you know, and being ostracized. And I can go on and on and on. So that's where I ended up. Again, the leadership piece is always there, because I wanted to know about leadership in reference to these valiant women, right. And there was nothing. There was no research on the leadership doulas. The the practitioner and things that they do. But in the realm of leadership, there was nothing there. There was one study and I talked with this particular scholar. Their study was on the leadership of midwives. But they focus on administering a online leadership training. Okay, that's cool. However, what about the historical ramifications that midwives had to suffer?

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

What about the racism, the gendered racism? The sexism. The systems of oppression that midwives even today have to navigate. I'm talking about Black midwives have to navigate. That was never ever incorporated in the training, in the leadership training. And again only telling a part of the story, but not the lived experiences of those that scholarship tend to erase, the voices that tend to have been erased in the leadership paradigm.

Candice Schutter:

Yes. I'm so curious to talk to you about your definition of leadership. Because whenever we talk about leadership, we talk about systems with you, and that's not necessarily the case when I talk about leadership with a lot of other folks. I would like for you to tell us, when you say leadership, what does that mean to you?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Well, it is not a traditional model whereby I am going to control this environment and you are to follow me based upon my vision of where I want to take you.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

That is not my definition of leadership. To me, leadership is followership, and followship is leadership. And I can go a little bit more into that. It is not a title. And I sometimes, I don't like to use the word leadership, because it puts you on a platform whereby we honor you because we have been trained to honor our leaders no matter what sector they're in. But if you are not culturally humbling yourself, then to me, you're not a leader. If you are not liberating, to me you're not a leader. And liberation means that, oh, I must liberate Candice because she's my follower. But liberating the essence of who you are, to be who you are. Um, because we're shaped by society, right? Be it good or be it bad, we bring those core, those values, those mores into our leadership style. Leadership is just a reflection of who you are. If you come from a, a white male supremacist model, hegemonic model, then you're gonna lead that way. But if you come from a collective framework, an indigenous framework, where community is the center point. And not just you outside of that community, but you within that community, then you are gonna lead a different way. And that's what I found out with my participants for the study about leadership. If you are not liberating, you are not leading. And it's so difficult at times to really understand that. When I say to people, being free to realize your humanity that's leading. Being free to realize the humanity of others that's leading. Where you can liberate yourselves from the systems that you have been forced to be into, that's liberating. And not only that, but that you create, like Sojourner Truth, a pathway for others. That to me, that's leadership. Really pushing against, liberating ourselves, liberating others from systems of oppression, right?

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

That really inhibit our full humanity. And believe you me, I don't see that at all right now in the leadership, the leadership that we have. I don't see that.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And I, I think that again, leadership is followership. And followership is leadership. And if you don't understand that you are really not ready for leadership.

Candice Schutter:

Can you say more about what you mean when you equate the two?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I, I think we briefly talked about a book that I'm reading To Stop A Tyrant, right? And Ira Chaleff. I, I, I just love his work, courageous leadership. And he goes into really the dynamic of we think leaders have the power, followers have a power. Because followers are leaders, if we look at them as such. You have the power to push against, push against mores, push against systems that do not align with your core belief. And I wanna share this with you and I wish I can show your listeners. They should really get this book To Stop A Tyrant. He shows a picture. It's a 1936 photograph, right? And they're in Germany and you know how you do, Heil Hitler. You know, they have thousands and thousands of crowds are idolating this particular leader.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And he zones into this one individual whose hand is not raised in the Nazi salute.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Of the thousands and thousands of people, Candice, this one individual who stood in the midst of this and took on a role of leadership. Although he's with all these followers.

Candice Schutter:

Right?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

That truly blow my mind. In essence, did not bend the knee. That's what we would call it now in 2025. And he says,"As citizens, we need to be alert when a loyalty test," and I'm talking about followers,"when a loyalty test is implicitly or explicitly imposed by requiring a chant, salute, or a code word. There is a time to stop chanting or cheering. There is a time to fold our arms across our chest and signify our disapproval of a specific message and perhaps of the leader delivering it." That to me is a follower. Time to stop the chanting. And that, of course, he's talking about Nazi Germany. But that's in organizations. That was the case in my space in higher ed when I stopped the chanting.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And I folded arms. And I decided I'm no longer going to do this, and I left. There is, Meyerson, I really love what she does. She talks about tempered radicalism. That's a followership where you know how to rock the boat without falling out. And sometimes you have to put on your safety jacket and get out of the boat. But to me that's followership, and to me that's leadership. So I just wanted to share that that picture was just embedded in my mind. And I wanna be that individual in the midst of all that's going on right now. And what also these Black birth workers did you're talking from a historical perspective, they did not chant what the medical system was saying. That Black women are inferior women of color are inferior. You to treat them. Did you not know that the father of American gynecology did horrific, horrific studies on enslaved young girls to find solutions, right? Did not medicate them, gave him morphine. They became addicted to the morphine so he can understand why these certain things that when we were going through. Once he found the results, then he took the results and applied it to his white patients. Okay? So that's the history that we're dealing with.

Candice Schutter:

Yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I, I thought about that when you asked me earlier, how are you doing? And I was silent. And I was thinking, how do I stop the chant? How do I stop the chant that I'm hearing right now, you know? And I, I don't mean to be emotional.

Candice Schutter:

You can be emotional.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You know, how do I fold my arms across my chest and show I disapprove of this. And I will not tolerate this. And how do I get others to stop the chant?

Candice Schutter:

Yes.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You know, I hope that makes a little bit of sense.

Candice Schutter:

It does. And I, there's so many places we could go with this. I mean, just what's coming to mind of course is, is your ancestors and the civil rights movement and the models that have been set that we can look toward in terms of what this looks like. I think it's important to look historically and we can go there in terms of how it connects to DEI and what that really means. I think it's gonna be really important for us to, clarify definitions. It's become propagandized on the right and turned into something that is very superficial and distorted. And I think it's important we talk about that. But, but before we do, I just wanna really underscore this piece around followership that I think is so important. I really resonate with. And how I really see this time as you know, it's easy to see it as a, as a crisis of leadership, but it's really a crisis of followership if we don't step up and do what you're saying and stand and fold our arms and resist. It may be confusing to people. I'm continually taking a critical perspective when it comes to leadership. And we're also in this conversation saying, we need to see leadership for what it, it is really. What it's potential is and not the colonizer logic that has been applied to it. It brings me back to a conversation we had recently. And you were talking about embodied leadership in a way that I think is really important. Your understanding of what an embodiment of leadership really means. That it's not this, from a wellness perspective, neoliberal project of like naval gazing and becoming an embodied leader. It is a boots on the ground, bodies in the way of, type of leadership. Will you talk a little bit about some of that and share that with the listeners?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

When I think of embodied leadership, I think of this. As a leader, is your body a tool of liberation? Is your body a tool of liberation? That's embodied leadership. I went to this one training that talked about mindful leadership. It was, it was quite interesting because I'm, that's not my area that I really delve into. But I'm so conscientious of mindfulness. And I have a different conceptualization of what mindfulness is. And it was, like you said, individuals were focused on how they were feeling and how their body was reacting in certain spaces. And, um, it was very interesting to me, because when I think of embodied leadership, I don't focus on, as you put it, my navel. I focus on how is my body a tool to bring forth liberation. However that liberation is defined within that context. It is a holistic approach and body leadership is a holistic approach that honors and celebrates the embodied experiences of others. And when I was in that mindful leadership training, we were celebrating the embodied experiences of us.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Which is fine, which is fine. You know, I, I, like I said, this is not my area of expertise. And I hope I don't offend your audience, you know,'cause mindfulness is just, you know, you need to be mindful of others. When I think of mindfulness, I think about, as I look at you, Candice, I'm mindful of your history. I'm mindful of your lived experiences. I'm mindful of how you are navigating whatever you are navigating in the system that you are in. I'm mindful of you, and when you step into spaces as a white woman. I'm mindful of you as you know, I don't know. All of your identities, your cultural identities.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

That's what I think of mindfulness. And how do I relate to that? How do I honor that? You know, how do I join and connect with that? How do I understand that? Because you may have aspects of your identity that I don't understand. But if I'm mindful and in tune to you and how that impacts me. So that's how I describe mindfulness. I'm sorry.

Candice Schutter:

I love that. No, I love that.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I probably don't, that's not the right direction for.

Candice Schutter:

No, that's absolutely helpful. I just wanna pause here and just say, I think that's a really helpful reframe for all the people listening who have been in the same kinds of spaces I've been in, in terms of wellness, and how I'm really struck by how communal and connective and integrated your sense of mindfulness is. Where a lot of, as a lot of times in these spaces, like in that workshop you went to. Which we had a whole conversation about that on one of our walks. That experience that you had in the mindfulness training, it does become very myopic and narcissistic. And what you're describing is a very different experience of applied mindfulness. It's all mindfulness. But how are we applying it? And how are we putting our bodies on the line, so to speak, for the whole? It's not just about ourselves. That's what I hear you saying. Am I getting that right?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Ditto. Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Candice Schutter:

All right.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Absolutely right. Embodied leadership for me, you have to be in tune to your core values, your beliefs, your histories, et cetera, et cetera. For me, If you are not dismantling the legacy and the trauma of oppression, because that's the DNA of America.

Candice Schutter:

Yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, and some may disagree with that. And I'm not anti-American. I'm not anti patriot. You, I'm No, no.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Please don't label me as such. But if you look at the history of how we came into existence, how America came into existence, there are narratives whereby we went to West Africa and made sure other people came here. Um, my ancestors who were already here. They were Indigenous, they were First Americans, you know, and what happened to their land and what happened to our people.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, and that's our narrative. and I think that's the American story, and

Candice Schutter:

It is.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

It should be incorporated with all stories, you know. But embodiment is really dismantling or pushing against the legacy of trauma, of oppression we have experienced. Trauma as a white woman in a very, very male dominated environment, right. I was listening to Hegseth when he was giving his speech. And I'm like, oh my goodness. You are erasing some members of your community.

Candice Schutter:

Yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You are demoralizing. You are diminishing. You are minoritizing. You're scapegoating.

Candice Schutter:

Yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Members of your community. How you view women. How you view people of color. But that's our marching orders. And when will we stop the chant again? You know. So that's how I view embodied leadership and mindfulness. I do incorporate mindfulness into it as well.

Candice Schutter:

One of the things that really struck me when we spoke, and we were speaking about embodied leadership, you said, I wrote it down because it really struck me. You said the civil rights leaders literally gave their flesh to activism.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

Gave their flesh to activism. And over the last few years, my eyes have been opening on a lot of different levels. And you explaining leadership the way that you have and I think of somatic abolitionists, there's a whole movement. And just the way that, to be quite frank, us white ladies in wellness have been missing the mark in terms of our understanding of what embodiment really means. And what it's for. I mean, I'm not trying to diminish the inner work that we did to restore our agency. But there's a point at which, to what end for, for what? We're restoring our agency to do what? To what end. And, and what will we do with it? Social justice activists, people who've been working in DEI have been screaming into the wind for so long. An understanding of embodiment that I'm getting from just listening to marginalized voices is exponentially more powerful than taking hundreds of hours of workshops from white folks teaching me about embodiment. I mean, that's just the damn truth. I don't wanna make this about me, but I wanna circle back to this question around the flesh of leadership and the leprosy of leadership and how we, can we heal it? How do we heal it? And is that kind of what we're talking about? Are we talking about the same thing?'Cause I, I think this embodiment piece is really important. Especially for The Deeper Pulse audience. For folks who have spent so much time getting into their bodies and becoming mindful.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

And want to do something right now. Want to know how do we become embodied followers slash leaders slash people who are making a damn difference in this crazy world?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, Candice, I really honor you. I've learned so much from you. I I appreciate your transparency, and your braveness, your courage to go there, to go there. And to me, that is embodiment. Do we allow ourselves to go there? To go to those places. Do we take ourselves to those places? And taking ourselves, of course you can say physically, but emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, educationally. Do we take ourselves to those spaces that may be uncomfortable? To me that's an embodied leadership. And when we talk about the flesh, if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me, Candice, is not the skin, the largest organ that we have.

Candice Schutter:

Yes, ma'am.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And so I thought about that and I thought about the of leadership, the flesh of leadership. The leader's flesh is comprehensive. How they show up, what they do with their flesh can bring forth light into darkness. Or can propel darkness.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

When I think of the flesh of our current leader, I call that rancid leadership.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And we talked about this. I'm not bashing the president. So just think of a leader that makes you toxic. Think of leader in your own sphere of experience that makes you sick. Every time they come into the room, your heart begins to beat fast, you know? Your palms get sweaty, you don't know what they're going to say, right?

Candice Schutter:

Hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

That's a rancid leader. The flesh now now perforated the environment and created an environment of toxicity, an environment that is not healthy. Created an environment where you are not thriving. You are not excelling. You're dying. And you're becoming more poisonous. A courageous leader slash follower would not allow that to occur. Would not let that rancid poison take a hold of their own embodiment. A narcissistic follower would revel in that. And we see so many narcissistic followers who really are bathing into the rancidness and poisonous of this leader.

Candice Schutter:

That's right.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Or any leader. So I, I don't. You know what I'm saying.

Candice Schutter:

Sure. Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And so, when I think of in my research, the granny midwives, the enslaved women, social justice activists, feminist groups, well, some of them did, actually did give their flesh, gave their life. You know, were killed.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You know, but let's expand the terminology of flesh. Flesh is your emotions. Flesh is how you perceive things. It is a living, living thing that really consists of who you are or make up who you are. You know, your philosophical view on things, your ideology, your values, right? All of those things, those are the cells of your flesh, for lack of a better word.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

The cells of your flesh, you know. And some cells are cancerous.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Many of the activists, especially those within the enslaved communities, we have what's called Follow the North Star. I'm quite sure you've heard of that term. What is your North star? What is your North Star leading you? That will determine the type of flesh as a leader you have, you know what I mean? We don't tend to think that way as leaders. Because we've been trained. I mean, there's like 35,000 definitions of leadership in the year 2015. 35,000 leadership definitions. Oh my goodness. Okay. So we, we should, should have it together by now.

Candice Schutter:

You would think.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Who are, give me the leadership prototype. When I do training, I say, what is your leadership prototype? You know, when you think of a leader, what do you think of? Um, if people are honest, they think of white male.

Candice Schutter:

Yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You know.

Candice Schutter:

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, not gay.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, some say, oh, he has to be Christian. You know.

Candice Schutter:

Right, right.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

We have this prototype of a leader and anything that deviates from that, then we reject it. Or we demonize it.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

Which sort of, I think, leads perfectly into conversations around DEI and.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Hmm.

Candice Schutter:

The way it gets collapsed into this acronym as well. Because each point in that is tremendously important. And there's so much emphasis on, organizationally, performative presentations of bringing diversity and tokenizing and even if there is a diversity present, I don't have enough diversity in order to actually create a space for those voices to speak up. I've created diversity, but have I created inclusion? And then there's equity. And I think what you just said about the prototypes we have in our mind about what leadership is, speaks a lot to the way implicit bias functions and gets in the way of equity'cause we've all been conditioned by the culture that we live in. And depending on how steeped we are in that culture, we have variant levels of that. So I think people have like a basic idea of what the importance of DEI is and what it means. But let's just say that's the foundational knowledge that somebody comes in with. What are we missing? What's important from your perspective as somebody who's actually worked in creating DEI programs and how it relates to leadership for two decades. What more is there to say that needs to be said right now more than ever, so that people really understand why it's so important.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

That is an excellent question. I entered the DEI space because it was a calling. And that calling was shaped by my lived experiences, like I told you, my mom.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

My auntie Helen. It was not something that I did. It was who I was. When DEI was the hot thing. People were making mega mega dollars. Higher ed institutions had VPs of DEI making six figures. Organizations had, you know, VPs of DEI. You know, it was the hot thing to do and to be. I'm not saying that they weren't sincere. I can't evaluate their heart. But what I saw was a business.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

How can we increase enrollment? How can we increase our bottom line? How can we increase our membership? What is in it for us?

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Let's try this DEI. It seems to be working pretty good, you know? And how I know it was performative when this president says that if you continue this DEI going to charge you millions of dollars, what have you.

Candice Schutter:

Yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Those organizations.

Candice Schutter:

Capitulated. Yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Folded. Right. And they began to chant what the leader wanted. What was the chant? Shut down the DEI offices. Remove individuals who have hold that position. Just let's relocate them on university campuses. You know, um, if you're pro-Palestinian, shut it down and make sure that this institution no longer receives grant funding. Whatever, whatever the case is. And what happened? These organizations, they chanted what the leader wanted. I am very disappointed. It takes courage to be that one person. I will not do this.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I will not. Okay. You can make, I have to come to the rally. Okay, okay, okay. I'm here. But I'm not gonna do this. And it takes courage. It takes courage to do something like that. And how do you become courageous in the midst of, you may lose all that you value? You know. When I left higher ed, I remember the meeting that I had with my VP and my AVP. And I informed them that, I'm going to leave because my purpose is no longer here. And I had a very good position. But I felt that, I felt sounds of chanting, for lack of a better word.

Candice Schutter:

Mm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Just little sounds of chanting.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I did not know it was gonna end up like this, you know.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Like, two years later i'm like, oh my God, I'm so glad I left. Oh my god.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, because it's become so corrupt. No, no. Let me retract that. There are so people doing good work, so many activists still pushing and shoving, because it's who they are. It's their purpose. It's their North star.

Candice Schutter:

They've embodied it.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

There. There you go.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

There you go. There you go.

Candice Schutter:

You can't help but, if you embody it. That's integrity, right?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

There you go.

Candice Schutter:

There's no other option. And that's where we need to focus. And I'm not saying this is the solution, but one thing that is important is that we become embodied in our values. That our values aren't just soundbites we tweet or post every so often. That it's not just virtue signaling that, that we embody our values so that we're willing. We're not just willing, we have no choice but to, because it's, we've embodied it, right? I mean, it sounds, even as I'm saying it though, I'm like, it sounds so idealistic. But on another level it doesn't, because, you know, I feel like I can't but not speak up right now. And that's a function of the values that I have embodied. And I have a long way to go in other areas, and I have a lot of courage to embody yet still. But it does feel like that, right, Lesa? I'm going back to the image that you, painted the picture so beautifully of the guy at the rally and refusing to put his arm up. My arm will not go up. It is not an option for me to bow to this. And I think your explanation of the embodiment of the leadership is so important too. When we look at these organizations.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Hmm.

Candice Schutter:

Who did just fold. And it clearly, like you said, I know it was performative because they stopped doing it as soon as they were ordered. Whereas if they truly had embodied the promise, the purpose of DEI, it would not be an option.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

To dismantle. It would be part of the lifeblood of the organization itself. I just spoke with somebody yesterday actually, who is a dear friend of mine. She's a Black woman who's worked for an organization for many years, and I asked her like, what's happened within your company? Are you safe there? What's going on? And she said, I'm very fortunate because my company was doing DEI way before it was cool. And they have not budged an inch, because it's part of the culture. And it's not even DEI anymore. It's just part of the culture, right. Where inclusion is part of the culture.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

In the culture.

Candice Schutter:

We have pockets of hope in regards to that. I mean, do you, in the work that you did, you saw it work and stick, I would imagine.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

Didn't you?

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Um, I had a VP that was very, very supportive. You know, we did what was called a cultural scan of our department really wanted to hear the voices of the members of that particular department and reference to their sense of belonging, their sense of identity. Did they feel valued? What was their interaction with their supervisor, their leader, what have you. And you know, it was a very comprehensive study that we did. And that was because of the support of that leader that I reported to who had the same vision that I had. And again, there's a term, and I love Donna Ladkin. There's a term, lead beautifully. And leading beautifully means honoring and bringing healing and bringing hope, empowering. That's leading beautifully, right? We were allowed to lead beautifully. And then, you know, I left and then, you know, well that person left before me. And I don't know what's going on there now. The same fervor is not, my understanding, is not there.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Departments have been shifted. And you know, I'm not saying that they're anti DEI.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

But the state that we live in is the Republican governor. And so universities, you know, are beholden to making sure that they get the funding.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And to get the funding, you have to do the chant, and you have to raise the arm. So yeah. Um. But there was one institution in the state that I am in. And they were coming after this institution, hardcore, hardcore. And, um, decided that we will not chant. We will not adhere to your mandate. And the board of visitors surrounded this particular university president. He was threatened that, I'm gonna fire you, blah, blah, blah, blah, because many of the university presidents have been fired across the nation. um, that university president stood their ground. And those couraging followers, which I call them liberating gatekeepers. Because that's what we are gatekeepers.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And so, um, they banded together. And he's still there. But now, he may be gone once this podcast is over. But he's still there.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

There's still hope. And there are other institutions, you know, some law firms that did not chant when told to, they stood their ground and they're still in operation, other law firms.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Nationally, bow down.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

But I'm with you, Candice. Um. But what is concerning to me is that people are tired.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

People are tired. And what do you do with a tired citizenry? A tired populace? What do you do? How do, how do we navigate, you know. When they did the demographic swath who voted for Kamala, the Democratic, and the majority were Black women.

Candice Schutter:

Yep, yep.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Even though her message was very inclusive. And she reached out to white women in reference to reproductive justice and all of that.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And there was thing going on within the Black community, women more specifically, said, we're tired. We're not gonna do any marches.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

We're not doing anything. Y'all, it's your mess. Your mess, you take care of it.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And, and all honesty, Candice, I was chanting that.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I was. But when I see, and I'm from New York. When I see individuals go into the court system to do what is right. And I'm talking about undocumented individuals, go to the court system in New York to do what is right, because they have to report to the judge to make sure that their paperwork is being validated. And they step out that courtroom and getting beaten.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

The woman hair is dragged. The children are looking at their mommy and poppy.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I told my friends, I'm tired. But you know what? There's this old spiritual song says, wade in the water. Wade in the water, wade in the water. I ain't got time to be here. Ain't got long to stay here. But I'm gonna wade in the water. And I am going to wade in the water. And I'm going to march.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I have been on phone banks. I'm part of so many groups, you know. And I'm tired and every time I look at images I cry. And I go into my room and I get under the bed.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And I say, this is hopeless. How are we going to handle this? Then I hear stories, and I meet people like you.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And so many wonderful people that are tired, but we have embodied the purpose. We have embodied the calling. It's a calling, Candice. It's a calling. We've embodied it. And we are mindful, we're mindful of that calling. Right? And what it means. We're mindful of that calling, what it means.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

And the flesh, our flesh really supports that calling.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

We can march. And I will be on No King day. I'll be out there.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah. Same.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Other things, other things that, that's the cells of my flesh.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I'm going to be there. And my people were saying, Lesa, they're going to target black and brown people. You're gonna be in danger. I said, well, yeah, but my ancestors experienced so much. No one has lynched me. No one has bombed my house. You know, um, I will still go to the voting booth. And, rest assure, hopefully, I will not beaten like my ancestors were. Or told to count the jelly beans in a jar like my ancestors were. So how dare I, because I'm comfortable and tired to say, and a little nervous, that I can't do this. They did it. They did it. They did it.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

So I'm gonna do it. I have to. I have to honor Ursulen Alvero Branch and Aunt Helen. I have to.

Candice Schutter:

You know, all your friends that say, I am tired, your friends, your ancestors, your family members. I mean, honestly, if y'all wanted to sit it out, I'd be like, I totally get that. It is absolutely our turn and then some. And when I think about the embodiment piece and like embodying our values. And being out in a march with you and others. And I would hope that just like you described the way in which the people, the courageous followers circled around that leader within a university. I want for us as, as humans to do that for each other.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Yes.

Candice Schutter:

It doesn't have to be the leader who has like the, the societally ordained position in order for us to defend and protect that. I would like to think that if we were ever at a march together and, and somebody was threatening to you, that I would put my body in between you and them. Like I would, I would like to think that I would. And that, that a bunch of people would stand arm in arm with me. And that the flesh would extend itself, that it's.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Oh that's beautiful.

Candice Schutter:

You know, I think that's really what I'm getting when I think about the, the being tired. And I mean, it's by design. They're, they're trying to wear us down and traumatize us and, and make it so that we won't turn up. And I think the thing that will keep us vertical is each other. You know, when we can't do it anymore, we can't hold ourselves up. Like I can, you can reach out to me. I can reach out to you. And you know, it, it ripples outward, and say I'm tired and I'm can't sleep at night because of the image I just saw. And we show up for the people who aren't able.'Cause there's some people who they, they can't, they simply cannot. Like we all have to weigh the costs and decide for ourselves.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Right.

Candice Schutter:

What the embodiment of our values looks like. And for me and you, it's showing up. And for others it might be different. But if we share values, we share the same mission, I guess the same purpose.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

If it looks different and our histories are different. And that's one of the things I appreciate so much of talking with you is, you know, we talked about this process of decolonizing ourselves.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

And how colonization shows up very differently in your body than it does in my body, dramatically different. And we can learn about those differences and talk about those differences, and ultimately we share the value of wanting to dismantle that within ourselves and create something different, more inclusive and whole and real. And it sounds like that's the kind of environment that you came from. Like you said, diversity was something that you embodied early, that sense of humanity.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Yes.

Candice Schutter:

And interconnected was, was present for you as a child. And you have been so generous to spend so much time helping others to understand what that can look and feel like.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

And you are, you are an embodied leader. And I just learn so much from sitting across from you and hearing you describe things and help me to understand things in ways that I, I haven't before. And I am grateful to you and to your mama and your aunt. And all of you that have been trying to turn the light on in a very dark room for a very long time. And yeah, I, um, I'm just really grateful.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

I just had an image of ancestors escaping. And they were very strategic. They were a community. They watched out for each other, seeking that north star to freedom. There were some that lost their lives. But for most, they did not drown. They reached the other shore. And I see us, people like us who are wading in dangerous, dangerous waters. And we're navigating. And we're doing all that we can do. And we're strategic. But Candice, we will not drown. It may seem that way. And when I, when I feel myself weak, I know that Candice is gonna help pull me back. And we're just gonna keep wading in the water until there's freedom for all.

Candice Schutter:

And it's a journey worth taking regardless of if we get to that destination in our lifetimes or not, right.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Exactly. See that's the scenario. That is the scenario. Uh, I'm quite sure if you did a DNA scan, I'm quite sure there was some abolitionists in your family. I am quite sure there were some freedom fighters in your family. I have to believe that. I have to believe that.

Candice Schutter:

And there was some very compliant women who probably were complicit to some really, really bad shit, too. And I can own that. I think that's an important part of process.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

'Cause I look back on my past, and even moments in my present, where I default to ways of being that is like a reflex within me that I have to actively override, you know? So they're both true. And it's important that we acknowledge those two things are both within me. And what am I gonna choose moving forward? Like which legacy am I gonna carry forward? Which legacy am I gonna carry forward? Just like you're carrying forward the legacy of your ancestors wading in the water. Where am I gonna focus? And together, you know, arm in arm. We are going to to just keep taking this day by day. But I have to say, it really is connections like this that are carrying me through all of this and giving me strength. You give me strength, Dr. Lesa Clark.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You give me strength, Candice, you give me strength. And it's no mistake that our paths crossed. And it's no mistake that we met at that conference and had the walk. I call it, the walk.

Candice Schutter:

The walk.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You know, of all the people that were there. It was just the four of us, five of us who did the walk.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

You know, that is providential, that was designed because we need each other. And we will need each other in the future,'cause I believe things are gonna get worse. We're on that trajectory.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm Onward. Thank you.

Lesa Clark, PhD:

Thank you.

Candice Schutter:

Huge thanks to Dr. Lesa Clark for sharing her time and hard-earned wisdom with all of us. I really hope this conversation moved you, or at the very least, has you thinking about your own perspectives in new ways. As we wrap today's episode, let us again not forget that politics is far from hypothetical. It's not a thought experiment or a spiritually contemplated move on a metaphysical chessboard. It's a reality that can turn on a dime and physically impose its whims, resulting in things like empty bellies and bruised bodies. As we're learning the hard way, we can't really turn our back on politics, because as they say, if you don't do politics, politics does you. If we want a country that stands for what we say it stands for, we have to embody our values in real time. Thanks again for listening. I'll be back in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode. Bye for now.

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Candice Schutter

Host