#89 - The Penny Peace Project: Rural Organizing & Bridging Culture War Divides

“Be Like Penny.” If you visit my current hometown of Cottonwood, Arizona, you’ll see these three words displayed around town. Penny Smith was a friend to many and a living example of how everyday citizens can make a meaningful difference in their local communities. She passed away in 2021, but her legacy lives on in the hearts of those who know and love her, and also through The Penny Peace Project. 

In this episode, I’ll introduce you to Julie Fernatt and Llama Habern, the founders of ROI (Rural Organizing Initiative). Thanks in large part to Penny’s supportive efforts, in 2023, Cottonwood was a planned tour stop for a regional drag company. Evangelical religious leaders mobilized their communities to turn up in droves, and city council meetings became contentious, escalating to threats of violence toward city leaders and community members. That’s when ROI and its partners organized a nonviolent response that effectively silenced right-wing agitators. Listen in to learn how they did it.

ROI currently provides civic engagement and supports candidates for local and county offices. Julie & Llama share how community organizing clears channels of communication and helps to build lasting, non-partisan coalitions. We also discuss: running for local office, fundraising, and the upcoming No Kings protest.

Local activism is accessible to all and with a little effort, we can all be more like Penny.

Rural Organizing Initiative (ROI) is a 501(c)4 non-profit corporation operating in Northern Arizona. ROI promotes full participation in democracy by providing civic education and by supporting/coaching potential candidates for local and county offices. Learn more at roi.vote.

Referenced In This Episode:

• Reach out to ROI for support
• Learn more about Penny Smith
• Find an Indivisible group near you
• Attend a NoKings Protest near you

Transcript

Julie Fernatt: 0:02

Because you're right, most people do want the best for their families, their communities. And really that's the whole thing about the culture war is if they can keep us divided and keep us fighting then that'll never happen.

Llama Habern: 0:13

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 0:13

And so we have to let our guards down and be open to new information from maybe people that we disagree with.

Llama Habern: 0:19

And just be curious. Talk to people. Because ultimately that's what organizing is, is all of us existing together and communicating with each other. Because we all care about the same community. Everyone's community matters to them. And as soon as we stop talking to each other. As soon as we say, oh, those people are hopeless. It's never gonna matter. There's no point in even discussing. Then we lose.

Julie Fernatt: 0:42

The culture war can only be fought if you fight it. If you choose not to fight it. It peters up. There's no culture war. It's gone.

Candice Schutter: 0:52

Welcome to the Deeper Pulse and happy Pride month, y'all. I'm gonna be speaking to some folks from my local Red State community who are doing the difficult work of bridging divides. Let's get to it. Culture war. If I was forced to attempt a definition of those two words, I would say that a culture war is another manifestation of the binary. Of humans forcing complexity into oversimplified, easy to digest, ideological sound bites. Us versus them. It really reminds me of Robert Jay Lifton's work and a topic that we've covered before on the podcast, what Lifton calls thought-terminating cliches. A byproduct of cognitive dissonance, thought terminating cliches are designed to relieve tension in the psyche, especially in moments where things get overly complex or two seemingly contradictory ideas are both true at the same time. There's a whole episode on Patreon that's devoted to thought terminating cliches, if you wanna check it out. But an example would be: It is what it is. These sorts of phrases shift us out of the burden of complexity toward a sense of certainty or ease of some kind. Thought terminating cliches can be psychologically comforting and soothing, precisely because they shut down critical thinking. And that can be very welcome at times. But they can also be used to negate diversity, variance, and the fact that a lot of times there are no easy answers in life. And the reason I'm bringing this up today is because propagandists rely on the fact that we all use thought terminating cliches from time to time. In our current political landscape, they're used to deny the existential reality of individuals or entire groups of people, lumping them into stereotypical categories in order to justify dehumanization. Just to toss out a few culture war examples. Protesting the government of Israel is antisemitic. Trans kids want to transition because they've been groomed or indoctrinated. Anyone who supports Trump is a bigot. Just this weekend I caught myself in the grip of one of these oversimplifications, telling myself, wow, white lady shamans really are just opportunistic grifters. And it's confusing, because sometimes a thought terminating cliche, these like blanket statements, can have a sliver or even a shit ton of truth in them. At other times, these stereotypes are forged from misinformation. So I'm not here to say that there isn't a time and a place for us to make generalizations. I mean, good luck having a human brain and not doing it. We are designed to categorize, to sift, and to sort. And yet, it is imperative that we know when we're doing it. Because if we solely rely on these shortcuts, it oversimplifies things. It flattens reality, especially when it points to complex political issues that require constructive and collective intervention.'Cause ultimately, we're not gonna change anything unless we employ curiosity and engage in dialogue and nuanced discourse. And as I say this, understand that I'm not here to make room for people who are operating with clear and nefarious intent. I'm talking about forging connections with people within our own communities, people with whom we share an investment. Because the truth of the matter is, is what the media wants us to focus on and fight about is mostly a smoke screen. When we take the bait in the argument over culture war topics, we are reinforcing an us versus them mentality that actually results in self righteous hijacking of the mind. And that is really the point y'all. Thought terminating cliches are leveraged to disseminate disinformation, which is different than misinformation, which is a mistake in understanding. Disinformation is purposefully designed to divide the populace. And underneath the biases and the prejudice that are being exploited, we have much more in common than what divides us. So this week, I'm sharing a really delightful conversation that I had with two local organizers and activists that live in my area. Julie Fernatt and Llama Habern are the founders of Rural Organizing Initiative, otherwise known as ROI. ROI is a local nonprofit that provides civic education and training for rural citizens. And also helps to find and support progressive candidates to run for local offices. I wanted to feature this conversation on the main feed of the podcast because it really describes what we mean when we say local activism, as well as why it matters. In this conversation, you'll hear Julie and Llama each share their personal stories about how they got involved in activism, what it means to them, and some of the small yet mighty wins along the way. They help me to suss out the difference between leadership and organization. And then we really get into the meat of the episode. ROI was founded a couple of years ago in response to tensions within the community here in my town of Cottonwood. And you're gonna hear how things got contentious and then what happened when Julie, Llama, and some other local community members, inspired by the legacy of a local hero, decided to organize a response that effectively silenced right wing agitators. I invited them onto the podcast to share this story, because it's such a helpful example of how we can stand tall in our truth without giving into antagonism and the culture war kerfuffle. How do we stand up to bullies without engaging them? This is an ongoing question, and today's conversation is going to offer us another layer of understanding around it all. In addition, Julie and Llama are also gonna share some helpful tips around how to build local communities. We're gonna talk about why sometimes it's smaller, more intimate networks that are most effective when it comes to activism. We'll talk about where to spend our fundraising dollars, how to get involved in local politics without spending a bunch of time on it, and also what you need to know if you or someone you know is thinking about running for local office. We wrap with the reminder around the upcoming No Kings protest on June 14th and also what else we can do to stand strong in the face of fuck all. The irony of the culture war is that it's a distraction from the real fight. The fight against fascism. By definition, democracy requires civic engagement. And if you're not sure where to start, this episode will help. Well, hello, Llama and Julie. Thank you so much for being on The Deeper Pulse. I'm super excited to talk to you today. And just on a personal note, somebody who lives in the Verde Valley, I'm just so grateful for the work that you do and I'm excited to get more involved. So this conversation is for everyone, all the listeners out there. But it's also actually very selfishly motivated because I wanna learn more about your organization and how I can be a part of things. And I know for sure today, a lot of the things we're gonna say, to speak to the listeners, out there are things that can be translated into their own local communities. So thank you so much for joining The Deeper Pulse.

Julie Fernatt: 8:45

Well, thank you for having us. We appreciate the opportunity.

Candice Schutter: 8:48

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 8:48

We're glad to be here.

Candice Schutter: 8:49

Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about the Rural Organizing Initiative.

Julie Fernatt: 8:54

Okay. Well, Rural Organizing Initiative, we started just about two years ago, and we are a community-based C focuses entirely on city council and school board races, local elections in smaller communities. We focus mostly on towns from 2,000 to 20,000. We can go outside that depending on the need. And we try to do a lot of civic education on how your local leaders and decision makers affect your life. And also just how easy it is to run. A lot of people approach us and say, well, I couldn't never, I'm not qualified. I couldn't run for city council or school board. And we always tell'em, go to a meeting and you'll, uh, find out really quickly how qualified you are. You'll decide you're probably more qualified than a few of the people in that position. And you know, we just really encourage it. Because if everybody gets involved in their community, the community's better for it.

Candice Schutter: 9:44

Yeah. And it ripples out, right?

Julie Fernatt: 9:46

Yes, yes.

Candice Schutter: 9:46

To those, those larger elections and whatnot.

Llama Habern: 9:49

Yes. Yeah. We firmly believe that if you turn out to vote in a local election, you're probably gonna vote the rest of the ticket, at least insofar as the people that you know about, are interested in, the offices that you even know about. Because one thing we find with our civic education is that people just don't necessarily know what all these different levels of government do or how they affect their lives.

Candice Schutter: 10:08

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 10:08

So we like to do what we can to just share that information with people.

Candice Schutter: 10:12

Absolutely. It's so needed. And I think organizers like you who are doing things on the local level, that's why I wanted to talk, because I think it's so important to educate. And so, following that vein for a moment, and I do wanna talk about your personal stories'cause I'm just so curious myself. And I know listeners out there will enjoy hearing how you got involved in the work you do. But before we go there, what do you think are like the baseline things that people need to be educated about when it comes to their own local civic engagement?

Julie Fernatt: 10:38

One of the things that we do is we track open appointed positions in communities. So, you know, there's other ways to get involved, not just your city council, your school board. But there's, you know, planning and zoning and community development, library boards.

Llama Habern: 10:53

Historic preservation.

Julie Fernatt: 10:54

Historic preservation. Yeah. You know, there's just dozens of these kinds of positions that help a community move forward. And people are just really unaware. Some of these are volunteer positions, some are paid positions. So we try to educate, you know, people that there's more than one way to get involved in their community.

Candice Schutter: 11:10

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 11:10

But the more that we all work together.

Candice Schutter: 11:12

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 11:12

You know, the better that we're all off.

Candice Schutter: 11:14

Yeah, absolutely.

Llama Habern: 11:16

And I would say, it's useful for people to know that there are different levels of government. So for example, I actually live outside the city of Cottonwood. I'm in Cornville, which means I'm unincorporated. So I don't have a local city government. I just have the county government that manages my area. And then, of course, there's the state above that and then the federal above that. But they all have different responsibilities even when it comes to basic things like who maintains your roads. That actually is a shared responsibility that the different jurisdictions have to work out. So for example, um, 89A. It's a state route. But it also goes through several cities or towns. And so, through those towns, like for example, through the town of Clarkdale where 89A goes through it, Clarkdale is actually the one responsible for maintaining that road. But when you go in between Sedona and Cottonwood, for example, where it's not someone's city, that's the responsibility of the state to maintain. That also depends on who can, say ticket you.

Candice Schutter: 12:14

Uhhuh.

Llama Habern: 12:14

Because different jurisdictions affect those things.

Julie Fernatt: 12:16

Oh, always Good to know.

Candice Schutter: 12:17

Right? Oh yeah. Most of us don't know, like, let alone just the basic structure of how things are happening within our communities, but then the nuances within that. Like, there's so much complexity there. And I wonder how many people don't get involved locally, because they don't understand the degree to which the dominoes are falling. It's like so many of us get involved when there's a primary.

Llama Habern: 12:39

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 12:39

Or a major election. And it's interesting. I heard you, I listened to a podcast interview that you did, and you were talking about the difference between coattails and a top hat.

Julie Fernatt: 12:49

Oh, I almost said that a minute ago.

Candice Schutter: 12:50

Yeah. Would you share that?

Julie Fernatt: 12:51

And really they call coattails, like when a, a big national, you know, politician gets a lot of popularity. They feel like everybody down ticket benefits from that. And they call that the coattails. And what we call a top hat, because we're down at the bottom and we're getting people interested and that's gonna benefit the people up at the top. So that's our top hat.

Candice Schutter: 13:11

I love that. I love that so much. And I think it resonates so much for me too. Because the thing that fascinates me about this top hat approach is that you can actually really know your leaders.

Llama Habern: 13:23

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 13:23

Actually. Not just the sound bites you're seeing on tv at the top level, but like, you can go meet them in person. You can attend a, a council meeting.

Llama Habern: 13:32

We'll see'em at the grocery store.

Candice Schutter: 13:32

Yeah. See'em at the grocery store. I did some canvassing for the election and a couple of leaders showed up to a vice presidential debate watch party. And I got to meet them in person, like everyday people who are making a difference. And I think when we build those personal connections, we're much more likely to vote.

Llama Habern: 13:48

Oh yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 13:48

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 13:48

And then, vote up the ticket, right?

Llama Habern: 13:50

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 13:51

Yeah. But then the other thing is in the size of towns that we concentrate on, everybody knows everybody. Which really, the thing that we've really realized too, is that in these rural areas, rural issues are rural issues. They're not red or blue issues. You know, whether or not you get a new wastewater treatment plant, that's not really gonna fall on either side of a party. It's just, you know, a community issue.

Candice Schutter: 14:12

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 14:13

And those community issues really, you know, brings people together. We can all be on the same side of, you know, yes, we want clean water. You know, there's, you might get people on two sides of pro and cons of an issue, but it's still, there's no red and blue division. Which we really like, you know, we like seeing the community come together. So.

Candice Schutter: 14:31

Yeah, I love that. And we're gonna talk a little bit later about those culture war divides. And, and how that can play out and how we can respond constructively to that. I, I'm excited to go there with you. Before we do though, I want to know if you could each just take a moment to share your backstory in terms of how you got involved in organizing. Well, first, before we go there, actually, let's define what an organizer is.

Julie Fernatt: 14:52

You know, I was just gonna say something to you. You said something about leaders. And I really differentiate between three categories. There's decision makers, and those are your elected officials who get to make decisions about your life. There are leaders and that can, a lot of times decision makers are leaders. Sometimes they're really not leaders, they're just sort of there. Um, but leaders are people in your community that are willing to step up when there's a need and help. And then there's organizers, which is a little bit different. Those are the people that get all those leaders together, get all those people in the room to help, you know, bring their opinions to the decision maker. So.

Candice Schutter: 15:25

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 15:25

Kind of three categories. And you can be in more than one. You can be in all three categories. But you know, sometimes you just sort of stay in your lane.

Llama Habern: 15:32

And I would just add that when you organize. In some ways it is a behind the scenes position, even though it kind of doesn't seem like that in this day and age. Well, is there even a behind the scenes in this day and age? Just an open question.

Candice Schutter: 15:44

It's a good question.

Llama Habern: 15:45

But, um, part of our role, at least the way I see it as organizers, is to bring together the people who can make impact. Whether that's community members who have a view about how an issue is affecting them. Whether it's decision makers who get to make the final call about that issue. Or whether it's just, you know, people that are interested in what's going on and wanna know what they can do to help. Our job, as I see it, is kind of to facilitate giving them avenues to get involved or use their energy however they would like to.

Julie Fernatt: 16:15

Or to get informed.

Llama Habern: 16:16

Yeah, yeah, get informed. Also, a big part.

Candice Schutter: 16:18

Well, and I'll just reveal my bias upfront, that, you know, part of the reason I also wanted to have you on as organizers is because I feel like organization is what we need more than leadership right now.

Llama Habern: 16:29

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 16:30

And I think there's a reason for that, because of the, the way in which the human psyche functions around leadership. It actually shuts down mobility, whereas organizing activates it. And so, um, yeah.

Llama Habern: 16:40

One thing about organizing is that you have to be in touch with people on the ground. Like you have to be having those conversations, building those relationships. And I think sometimes where I see the division between organizer and leader is that sometimes leaders end up sort of dividing themselves from the people on the ground. Sometimes the very positional power that exists creates a divide.

Candice Schutter: 17:02

Absolutely.

Llama Habern: 17:03

And you know, we have to have everyone so that everyone's voices are heard.

Candice Schutter: 17:06

I a hundred percent agree with that. Thank you for that. So tell us how you got involved in this kind of work. And you can go as far back as you want to,'cause I know our early experiences sometimes shape our choices.

Julie Fernatt: 17:17

Alright. Actually, I mean, when I was young, my mom, she had eight kids. She took us to protest against the Vietnam War and other student movements in the 60s. So, you know, I had a taste of that. Grew up in a very politically active family. You know, my dad ran for local office, but really didn't know what to do at that time. So he didn't win. But, uh, my mom helped start a group called Peace Links. Which when Perestroika the, when the Soviet Union fell, they took business people from Russia and brought them over here to see how American businesses worked. And then American business people went over to Russia to learn how their businesses worked. So it was, you know, I, I had that growing up. And then got involved more as an adult, uh, worked for Senator Evan by for a few years and worked with the Indiana Peace and Justice Institute. Volunteered a lot with different organizations. Came to Arizona thinking I was gonna be done and just wanted to just garden and play with my bunnies. And, uh, then Donald Trump was, you know, running for office. And I got a little bit involved. And then, yeah, as things got worse, we just, you know, you couldn't stay home. You couldn't sit on your hands anymore, so.

Candice Schutter: 18:24

That's right.

Julie Fernatt: 18:24

In 2020, during the Black Lives Matter protest, because I told you a little about my mom's, you know, bringing me into this work. She had passed away in 2016, actually four days before Donald Trump was elected.

Candice Schutter: 18:35

Oh, wow.

Julie Fernatt: 18:35

Which I, I always say, I'm grateful that she got to live in a world where the Cubs were in the World Series. But she never had to live in a world where Donald Trump was president. Um, she was a big Cubs fan. But so my first protest, I actually had saved her tennis shoes and I wore them and took pictures and said I was literally walking in my mom's shoes that day.

Candice Schutter: 18:53

Oh, that's so beautiful.

Julie Fernatt: 18:53

That was very cool.

Llama Habern: 18:54

Love that.

Candice Schutter: 18:54

That is so beautiful.

Julie Fernatt: 18:56

Llama and I first started ROI thinking that we needed to help bring organizations together.

Candice Schutter: 19:02

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 19:02

And realized that there are people out there already doing that heavy work.

Candice Schutter: 19:05

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 19:05

And so quickly realize there was a, a big need in that local level office holder. So when we started addressing that need, then things really fell into place.

Llama Habern: 19:17

I started pretty young in politics. Um, I came out as queer when I was in high school. And at the time, that just kind of automatically meant I was political. Like it wasn't really a choice.

Candice Schutter: 19:29

Right.

Llama Habern: 19:29

It just kinda happened. But I was always interested in politics. And my dad was a big part of that, too. He wasn't necessarily active in the community as much. He worked from home. He spent a lot of time, you know, he was more of a retired veteran. Although he never really retired. He always worked. But always worked for himself. So that was different. But, um, he was the one who kind of helped me learn how to get informed and just like be aware of what's going on. And even then, it was mostly more at the national level. So it wasn't until I actually came up to the Verde Valley that I really learned about how much local affects things, but also just like what those divisions are. Which I thought was kind of funny because if I back up for a minute. After high school I went to ASU for political science. I actually have a interdisciplinary studies degree with a concentration in political science and justice studies. Which is a big mouthful way of saying we did a lot of theory, very little actual application.

Candice Schutter: 20:22

Oh yeah.

Llama Habern: 20:23

Like literally they did not even teach us how to register to vote. I hope at that point most people were already registered. But you think a political science program would teach you how to register to vote And they did not. Interesting. So that's a big gap.

Candice Schutter: 20:34

That's a whole other discussion, right? Like the institutions, how the institutions function and how the real world functions and divide there.

Llama Habern: 20:39

Very much so. But yeah, so after college, my first kind of work in politics was at the time Reuben Gallego was running for Congress for the first time in 2014. And so I was lucky enough to get to work on his campaign in the field, you know, driving a team of canvassers. And that's really where I learned like how does the field part of campaigns function?

Candice Schutter: 20:59

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 21:00

Which was wonderful for me because then later on I got to be in the role of the field organizer, like, sending people out on those canvases. So it was good to know how it worked.

Candice Schutter: 21:09

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 21:09

Um, but in between those two things, I spent seven years working for an, an organization called Leadership for Educational Equity. And they focus on training their members to take public leadership roles, like elected office. But also policy roles, advocacy roles, organizing roles in order to fight for educational equity.

Candice Schutter: 21:28

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 21:29

So it looks different for everyone, but a lot of the work I did was on training people how to run for office. So, you know, great amount of background. And that was probably the first time someone asked, Hey Llama, when are you gonna run for office?

Candice Schutter: 21:40

Uhhuh.

Llama Habern: 21:40

And you know, my first response was, uh, I'm not. On average, it takes eight asks for someone to agree to run for office.

Candice Schutter: 21:48

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 21:48

So, you know, never hurts to get those asks in.

Julie Fernatt: 21:49

We've about four more to go with Llama, and then we'll get Llama in office.

Llama Habern: 21:52

Yeah. But I do actually like being behind the scenes a little bit more.

Candice Schutter: 21:55

Okay.

Llama Habern: 21:55

I feel like I am more effective helping others get into office than just holding one specific position in office.

Candice Schutter: 22:02

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 22:03

But, you know, we'll see. But anyway, my dad died kind of right in the middle of COVID.

Candice Schutter: 22:07

Mm-hmm. Sorry.

Llama Habern: 22:08

And, um, he and my mom had just bought a house three months beforehand in Cornville.

Candice Schutter: 22:13

Oh wow.

Llama Habern: 22:14

So it was, you know, a fairly big house. And she's like, I don't wanna live here alone. And I was at the point just personally, medically, where I couldn't really take care of myself alone anyway. So I got to move up to the Verde Valley and live with my mother, which I love. We have a great relationship. I'm really lucky. But it meant that, uh, suddenly I was up here in a neighborhood where I didn't really know anyone. And at the time I was still working for LEE, Leadership for Educational Equity, so I didn't really leave the house'cause I worked virtually. Not great for my mental health, I gotta say.

Candice Schutter: 22:43

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 22:44

But, uh, we unionized as employees of the organization and then three quarters of us got laid off, including me. So suddenly I was in the Verde Valley, didn't really know anyone and needed work. And I was lucky enough, I had just gotten in touch with the local Verde Valley Democrats. And through them met a couple people that led to me getting the chance to be the field organizer for Democrats of the Red Rocks, which is a PAC up in Sedona that organizes around democratic issues. And that was a great experience for me. Just very informative. Here's how you figure out like, which doors to knock and what to do. So it was just a great experience. But then in 2022, Julie and I ended up leading the Democratic field voter contact efforts for the whole Verde Valley and Sedona. And'22 was actually a great year for Arizona election wise.

Candice Schutter: 23:33

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 23:34

Um, we had a lot of big victories, but we personally had a lot of frustrations with just how the things were run. And then as Cottonwood itself kind of started to blow up around culture war issues around the drag show. And that was when Julie and I kind of realized, Hey, there's a need here. This is a need we can meet. And so we formed Rural Organizing Initiative.

Candice Schutter: 23:55

Right. You know, I think the reason I wanted you to share your stories is because we all have a personal connection to these issues and to the why of any level of activism. And a lot of times when I hear from activists and organizers, I don't get to hear that part.

Julie Fernatt: 24:12

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 24:12

And it moves me almost to tears, because I think it's so important for people to understand the why.

Llama Habern: 24:18

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 24:19

And, and for organizers to share their why, because it connects to the human spirit.

Llama Habern: 24:23

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 24:23

It makes people more likely to show up for their own why.

Llama Habern: 24:26

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 24:26

Right. It's like, you're not doing this because you have a political science degree and that's what you're supposed to do. Right. It's like, we're not automatrons. We're humans who are responding to a need. And right now the need is bigger than ever. And so thank you for being willing to, you know, let us have a little bit of peak of your background. And like, what drew you to work together? What about your connection made you wanna create something together?

Julie Fernatt: 24:46

You know, it's kind of funny because we laugh all the time. We are complete opposites in everything. You know, from what we drink to whether we like it hot or cold and somehow that works perfectly. Because, you know, our strengths compliment each other, where our weaknesses are. We had to start working together to try to do the best that we could in the 22 election. It's a limited area and we were trying to be as efficient as we could be. And then quickly after that, we were approached by somebody who said they liked the work that both of us did and wanted to see us do more. Said they could get us funding if we started a, uh, new non-profit. And we did. Um, the funding never came through.

Candice Schutter: 25:23

Mm.

Julie Fernatt: 25:23

So we drove Uber and Lyft like crazy for the first year or so that we were rolling just to keep our, you know, doors open. But then the funding came, you know. Actually it came fairly early. I shouldn't say it took a whole year, because we were out doing the work.

Candice Schutter: 25:36

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 25:36

One of the things that really got us started is the Cottonwood City Council was kind of melting down. They had a member who was being accused of aggressively sexually harassing city workers. I mean, it was to the point where they weren't allowed in non-public areas of the city offices without someone with them. We had another city council member whose Twitter handle was Ultra MAGA For Life, yeah. And they were just disrupting and, you know, creating chaos. And then a drag show came to town.

Candice Schutter: 26:03

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 26:04

Um, the city council meetings began to get hours long with call to the public. It was vicious, a lot of contention. And, you know, we realized we needed to step in on a couple of levels. We instigated a, a recall for one of the city council members.

Candice Schutter: 26:21

Great.

Llama Habern: 26:22

And it was successful..

Julie Fernatt: 26:22

For both of them. But one of them actually dropped out of, so one of them went all the way through. And, you know, educated local people on how to run for office and Cottonwood got a slate of really good, you know, open-minded. I won't say all progressive. They're just very able to take in information. And very calm and, and.

Candice Schutter: 26:39

Great.

Julie Fernatt: 26:39

The council now is just amazing. So we're.

Candice Schutter: 26:41

That's so great.

Julie Fernatt: 26:42

We're super happy about that.

Llama Habern: 26:43

Yeah. They communicate with each other, which is the biggest strength in a leader.

Candice Schutter: 26:46

Absolutely. It's not about us all agreeing on all the issues. It's about having, you know, civil conversations that represent

Llama Habern: 26:52

Yep.

Julie Fernatt: 26:52

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 26:52

Everyone's interests, not culture war soundbites, which.

Llama Habern: 26:56

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 26:56

Is a place we wanna go.

Llama Habern: 26:58

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 26:58

Let's talk about the Penny Peace Project.

Llama Habern: 27:01

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 27:11

Well, right in the middle of that culture war, it got to the point where, you know, over a hundred people were showing up to each meeting. And it was just a real back and forth of you're grooming our kids, you hate gay people, you know, just back and forth. There were actual death threats from the dia-, members of the council. It was just getting crazy. And then at one meeting, in the middle of all the back and forth, this woman gets up. And she brings up the name of a local person who had passed away. Her name was Penny Smith. You'll see around town little stickers in the windows that say, Be Like Penny. Penny did more good works than anybody I've ever known. She friends and I sat for over half an hour naming things she did.

Llama Habern: 27:48

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 27:49

And had not run outta steam. She raised money for humane shelter, for foster kids, created an annual event that raises money for children burn victims, and for a camp, Camp courage for them. You know, supported Pride and LGBTQ youth, just millions of things. Anyway, she was beloved. And she passed away. And every year on the anniversary of her death, there's a gathering. I mean, she was really cared for. This woman gets up at the council and she brings up Penny's name. She said, I knew Penny Smith. And Penny did a lot of good things for this town. But Penny brought drag shows to main stage, and I wish she could come back from hell and let people know how God judged her.

Llama Habern: 28:24

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 28:25

You couldn't have thrown a bigger fire bomb in the middle of a room. It was vicious. Within an hour, there were a hundred posts on Facebook. You know, we know her address. Let's burn our house down. You know, it, we, it was very bad. So we said, okay, we've gotta get a lid on this'cause this is, somebody's gonna get hurt. And, you know, we're a small community. We don't need this. We didn't know if this would work, but we got everybody together and at the next council meeting we had about 60 people there. The first person got up and talked a little about who Penny was. That was one of Penny's really good friends. The next 58 people in line just said one thing. Even though you have a whole three minutes, you don't have to fill your three minutes when you're at call to the public.

Candice Schutter: 29:02

Thank goodness. With 58 people.

Llama Habern: 29:04

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 29:05

Well, and it was, I mean, it was that the longest meeting we were at was over four hours.

Candice Schutter: 29:08

Wow.

Julie Fernatt: 29:08

I mean, it was crazy before that. They just said one thing. They walked up to the podium and they said, I'm here because I support the Penny Peace Project. They put a penny on the podium, and they turned around and pinned a ribbon on a jacket I was wearing. So at the end I was wearing a jacket that was covered in, in ribbons.

Llama Habern: 29:22

And it was actually one of Penny's jackets.

Julie Fernatt: 29:24

Yeah. It was one of Penny's jackets.

Candice Schutter: 29:25

Oh, that's beautiful.

Julie Fernatt: 29:25

So, um. So then I got up and said that we are no longer gonna participate in this culture war. That we will be watching what they do. We'll send them emails. We'll write letters to the editors. And you can darn well bet we're gonna be voting in November. But we're no longer coming to these meetings and just wasting our time. We have things to do. We have families to raise. We have voters to register. We've got work to do. And this is not helping. Um, and then we left. And we didn't know. I will say two council members were moved to tears during that because of relief, because they had been being tortured, you know, meeting after meeting. And it gave the agitators just one choice. You know, they could show up and keep looking like just annoying a-holes. Or they had to stop coming. At the next meeting. Only three people from that side showed up and only one spoke.

Candice Schutter: 30:14

Interesting. They didn't have anything to push against.

Julie Fernatt: 30:16

And, and again, we just had one person there with the jacket. And we let that go. It, it put out the culture war and let people get back to doing their business. We've used it a couple times since and it's been really effective. We don't always win, but we normally. You know, we just did an event in Jerome with a Penny Peace Project. And the council voted unanimously to support the drag show that was coming to town. That was not expected. But I do wanna talk a little about where that came from. Um, the culture wars is a very directed thing. It's not, you know, these hundreds of people aren't showing up because they read something in the paper, came up with it. They're being led there usually through, you know, evangelical churches. And it's actually a program that comes outta the Heritage Foundation.

Candice Schutter: 30:58

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 30:58

And it's a program from Mike Flynn. I don't know if you know much about Mike Flynn, but he was, yeah, on.

Candice Schutter: 31:03

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 31:04

Trump's staff and spent time in jail. Um, but now, it's funny because I've always said something and he says the same thing, so it's very weird that I agree with him on one thing. But it is that local action has national consequences.

Candice Schutter: 31:15

That's right.

Llama Habern: 31:15

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 31:16

And it does. And so, he realized that if he could keep locals fighting each other, then they're not gonna do all that work of organizing, of getting out and voting. It's creating a division. In small communities, we really have more in common than divides us. But he's finding artificial divisions.

Candice Schutter: 31:32

Yep.

Llama Habern: 31:33

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 31:33

Um, it has kind of run its course with the drag show. You don't see as much of that in the news right now. The new culture war is on renewable energy.

Llama Habern: 31:43

Specifically.

Julie Fernatt: 31:44

Specifically solar. If you go to Heritage Foundation website, they have pages about the Biden solar evils. I went to a, I observed a city council meeting recently in Chino Valley, tiny town, you know, under 10,000 people. And over a hundred people showed up to talk about how bad solar was.

Candice Schutter: 32:01

Hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 32:01

Now, I promise you, in a town that size, there weren't a hundred people sitting in their living rooms waking up one day and thinking, Hmm, I hate solar. I'm gonna the city council meetings.

Candice Schutter: 32:09

So true.

Julie Fernatt: 32:09

They're being sent there. And it's when you start to talk to them, they haven't thought further than solar bad. Like I, I spoke to somebody there and said, you know, I was talking about energy independence. And she goes, do you mean solar? And I said, yeah. She goes, well, I hate solar. Solar's bad. And I said, oh, I understand. I said, but what would you like to see instead of solar?'cause we do have energy needs. And she thought about it and she said, uh, windmills. I wanna, I wanna see wind. And I thought, well, that's great. That's another renewable energy. Um, what is it you don't like about solar? And she said, well, it's the aesthetics. And then she just sort of stopped. Because she was thinking the view. And then she realized, well, okay, windmills is, you know, and you could just see it going. She had never thought further than that.

Candice Schutter: 32:48

Sure.

Llama Habern: 32:48

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 32:48

I had another couple that I had asked. And I said, you know, what, what would you like to see on this particular land that they were talking about? And the husband said, well, coal. Coal can burn clean. And I said, so you'd be okay with a coal plant there? And he started to nod yes. And his wife just grabbed him and was going, no, you know.

Candice Schutter: 33:06

Don't say that.

Julie Fernatt: 33:06

They hadn't thought further. Because all they know is solar bad. I have to go to the city council meeting.

Candice Schutter: 33:11

Yes.

Llama Habern: 33:12

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 33:12

And it's the new culture war.

Candice Schutter: 33:13

Yeah, yeah. I really appreciate you going into that because you know the folks who have been listening to this podcast for a long time, I did a whole series called the'cult'ure Series, where the word cult is in quotes. And it was based on experiences that I had in a new age wellness cult. And then, I interviewed a bunch of people in different things. And it actually led me to these political issues.

Llama Habern: 33:33

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 33:33

And what's been happening for many years here in our own country. And I think calling it a culture war is perfect,'cause it is sort of like cult mentalities warring.

Llama Habern: 33:42

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 33:42

And there's not substantive critical thinking going on. It's just soundbite sound bite, sound bite, sound bite, sound bites. And so I love that you found a way to, um, to get to the deeper pulse, quite frankly. To really just like get underneath those superficial divisions. And to speak to the core, like the thing that people on both sides have in common, which is a heart that cares about other humans ultimately. I believe that.

Llama Habern: 34:04

Even the people that are showing up against what we may be showing up for. They're showing up because they care about their community. Exactly.

Candice Schutter: 34:10

And this is where empathy really comes in. We did an episode on the podcast. She's become a regular on the pod. Her name's, Nikki G. She was part of the evangelical movement, the NAR movement, and the Seven Mountain mandate. And basically she came on and said, I'm gonna tell you how this plan has been playing out for the last 50 years. And how I was in those rooms. And how they have very strategically sent people to all these seven aspects of culture. And I'm encourage people to listen to that episode.

Julie Fernatt: 34:36

Yeah. I wanna listen to it.

Llama Habern: 34:37

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 34:38

It's really, it's really fascinating. It's a two part conversation. We had it just before the election. And there's this long game that's been playing out. And that folks have been sort of indoctrinated into this way of thinking. And making them wrong or bad people is not gonna help anything.

Llama Habern: 34:49

No.

Julie Fernatt: 34:49

You know, that, that brings up something I wanted to say too. There's kind of two parts to combating this culture war. And one is just not participating. It really helps when we show up and say, look, we're not gonna play. But you can't start there. You have to kind of build some groundwork before that. But, um, the other thing is, in those personal conversations, you know. You're right. They show up because they think they're doing the best for their community. You're never gonna win someone over by throwing a lot of facts at them. Because they have their facts and you can go back and forth. And, and it doesn't matter whose facts are right.

Candice Schutter: 35:18

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 35:18

They're not gonna change on that. What we do is just ask a lot of questions. And for two reasons. It's not asking questions to trick them into coming to your side. It's really trying to understand what their fears are.

Candice Schutter: 35:32

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 35:32

What their concerns are. What they care about. What's important to them. And then trying to find a way that you can work together to address those issues.

Llama Habern: 35:41

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 35:41

And that is a way better approach than, well, you're wrong and I'm right.

Candice Schutter: 35:45

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 35:45

And this is the right way to go, because that's never gonna work.

Llama Habern: 35:48

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 35:48

Because you're right, most people do want the best for their families, their communities. You know, nobody wants high crime rates, nobody wants pollution. And they all think they're doing the right things. So by working together and trying to come to solutions together in a small community. And really that's the whole thing about the culture war is if they can keep us divided and keep us fighting

Candice Schutter: 36:09

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 36:09

Then that'll never happen.

Llama Habern: 36:11

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 36:11

And so we have to let our guards down. And, and be open to new information from maybe people that we disagree with.

Llama Habern: 36:18

And just be curious. Talk to people. Because ultimately that's what organizing is, but also that's what community is, is all of us existing together and communicating with each other. Because we all care about the same community. And we all want to be, you know, wherever our community might be located. Everyone's community matters to them. And as soon as we stop talking to each other. As soon as we say, oh, those people are hopeless It's never gonna matter. There's no point in even discussing. Then we lose.

Candice Schutter: 36:45

We all lose.

Llama Habern: 36:46

'Cause no one has ever changed their mind, because someone yelled at them. No one, ever.

Candice Schutter: 36:51

Right.

Llama Habern: 36:51

But if you actually have a conversation and approach it from a place of curiosity. From a place of saying, I would like to understand where you're coming from. Can you please tell me more? And asking those questions, as Julie said, that's how you actually start to, not just break down your own preconceived notions and the other parties. But also you get to like, get to know someone.

Candice Schutter: 37:11

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 37:11

And that's always a treat to me.

Julie Fernatt: 37:12

The culture war can only be fought if you fight it. If you choose not to fight it. It peters up. There's no culture war. It's gone.

Candice Schutter: 37:20

And I think it's really important for us to differentiate what you're talking about, where you're fighting and you're taking the bait of the bully.

Llama Habern: 37:26

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 37:27

And, you know, engaging in the kerfuffle. That they're trying to keep you engaged in order to distract you from the connection that you're after.

Llama Habern: 37:35

Yep.

Candice Schutter: 37:35

Rather than saying like, okay, this thing is happening. And I'm gonna stand for what I stand for. And I'm going to speak up. And I'm going to platform people whose voices I think need to be heard around this. But I'm not gonna give attention to this noise over here. Right?

Llama Habern: 37:49

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 37:49

Yeah. Well, and I will say this. And I don't know that we have time on the podcast to really go through this. But there's more to it than just not fighting. Like you can't just let them show up and be unanswered.

Candice Schutter: 37:59

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 37:59

So there's a few steps to it. You do actually first have to show up, you know. I'm talking about public meetings and those culture worth issues.

Llama Habern: 38:05

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 38:06

Because those are, the decision makers are really who you need to focus on. They're the people that are passing the laws and the rules and regulations that affect your life. And if you just let the other side go in and have their say. Then that's all they've heard. And their job is to listen to the constituents. They're gonna vote the way that these people say.

Candice Schutter: 38:21

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 38:21

So you do have to initially show up and initially have your voice heard. So it might take one meeting, it might take two or three meetings. But you need to make sure that the decision makers are aware, there is a constituency for the other side.

Candice Schutter: 38:36

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 38:37

And then you have to pick a time where you all agree, you know, you need to be communicating, organizing.

Candice Schutter: 38:43

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 38:43

And then you all need to go and say, okay, you know how we feel. We're not gonna keep doing this. We're gonna pay attention, write letters, send them emails, call their offices, send letters to the editors. Say, but we're not gonna fight in this sandbox. We're taking our toys and going home. But we're still gonna watch you.

Candice Schutter: 39:01

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 39:01

So there's a, a little bit of a build up to it.

Candice Schutter: 39:03

I'm glad we cleared that up because I think a lot of people think, oh, well.

Julie Fernatt: 39:07

Just don't go.

Candice Schutter: 39:07

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 39:08

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 39:08

Make sure that they're aware that there is opposition. Because otherwise, I mean, really their job as decision makers is to listen to their constituents. And if the only ones they hear from say, we don't want drag shows. Or we hate solar power, whatever the thing is, then yeah, I think it's their duty to support that.

Candice Schutter: 39:23

True.

Julie Fernatt: 39:23

So they have to hear from you, but you can't get pulled into this back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

Llama Habern: 39:29

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 39:29

Yes.

Llama Habern: 39:29

And on the note of them needing to hear from you, there are a lot of ways you can make your voices heard with elected officials. Julie mentioned letters to the editor, obviously showing up at meetings. Calling, leaving voicemails, sending emails, all of those can be effective, especially for folks who maybe aren't comfortable with the idea of going to a public meeting or.

Candice Schutter: 39:48

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 39:49

Can't leave their house or, you know, whatever the situation might be. There are still ways you can make your voice heard. And I think it is also essential for us to remember that we should talk to our decision makers when they do something that we don't like. Yes. But we also need to thank them when they do something we do like.

Candice Schutter: 40:04

Yes.

Llama Habern: 40:04

Because no one likes it when the only time you hear from them is, oh, you messed up again.

Candice Schutter: 40:08

Right. And you're also letting them know, keep doing more of this.

Llama Habern: 40:11

Right. You're doing great. I'm here to support you. I've got your back.

Candice Schutter: 40:13

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 40:14

That's an important message, especially when you might be the lone voice of reason on an otherwise kind of crazy board.

Julie Fernatt: 40:21

You know, when we talked earlier about our background, I didn't actually talk about my current positions.'cause I am currently an organizer with a non-profit called RAZE and RZA. So Rural Arizona Engagement and Rural Arizona Action, C3 and C4 work. So they are working really hard on doing a lot of community education and just learning about what community needs are. Um, they're sending us out to do surveys in communities and find out what people want in the way of. Um, they're focusing right now on energy needs, but they have a lot of other focuses. And doing a great job of bringing youth leaders up. And I think that's the, the piece we haven't really talked about yet is, you know, who's gonna take over when some of us older folks step aside.'Cause we're all gonna have to at some point.

Candice Schutter: 41:04

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 41:05

And how to build that leadership. So I think that's another part of community organizing is, not just us coming in and organizing your community. Because that's not gonna do you anything in the long run. What we need to do when we go into these communities is find potential leaders and help them develop their skills. That's a big part of what we're doing.

Llama Habern: 41:25

Well, because also, no one wants an outsider to come in and tell them how to run their community.

Candice Schutter: 41:29

That's true.

Llama Habern: 41:30

Literally no one.

Julie Fernatt: 41:31

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 41:31

But if what you can do is go into a community, identify people who are interested in learning these skills and you know, meeting other people and doing the organizing work. We are lucky to be in a position where we can then share skills and knowledge and coaching and help build that up. Because ultimately, every community should be making their own decisions. It's not up to us to say, Hey Chino Valley, do you want solar? No. It's up to us to say, Hey Chino Valley, what would you like and how can we help?

Candice Schutter: 41:58

Right. And I think this is super important. I'm really glad that the conversation veered in this direction,'cause it was something I really wanted us to touch upon and emphasize. ROI isn't a partisan.

Llama Habern: 42:10

Correct.

Candice Schutter: 42:10

Organization. You know, in Washington, they want that culture war divide.

Llama Habern: 42:14

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 42:14

Like you said, and they want it to be a democratic or a Republican issue. So people just take sides and they go into that cultic head space, which both sides do, y'all.

Llama Habern: 42:22

Oh yeah.

Candice Schutter: 42:23

Big time. So it's this sort of knee jerk rejection of anything that's either red or blue.

Llama Habern: 42:28

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 42:29

And I think what I hear you talking about is. Like an organizer who's canvassing for the Democratic party. That's one thing. But what you're doing is you're organizing and offering a voice and vehicle to the community as they are. You tend to, it sounds like lean progressive, but that's because as I've heard you Julie say, we're into progress, which most people are, right.

Julie Fernatt: 42:51

We're not regressive, so.

Candice Schutter: 42:52

Right. Exactly. So talk a little bit about, either one of you, about the issue of partisanship. And how in our local communities we can do a better job of facilitating conversations that don't just immediately go in the direction of, is this Democratic or Republican?

Julie Fernatt: 43:07

You know, one thing I wanna point out about Arizona is it's basically, I mean, the numbers vary, but it's basically a third Republican, a third Democrat, and a third Independent.

Candice Schutter: 43:18

Interesting.

Llama Habern: 43:19

Um, and those independent numbers have been going up.

Julie Fernatt: 43:21

Yes.

Llama Habern: 43:21

Year after year.

Candice Schutter: 43:22

Yeah, I bet.

Julie Fernatt: 43:23

Yeah. They are. I think there's a couple reasons. I mean, Arizonans in general tend to think of ourselves as very independent. But also, you know, yeah, people are tired of those party structures.

Llama Habern: 43:32

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 43:32

And they realize it's not working. Because it automatically pits you against each other. And they're not interested in being pitted against each other. So, I see a lot of new parties being formed.

Llama Habern: 43:42

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 43:42

There's some really active new parties that are being realistic. They're third party, but they're not throwing third party candidates out there. They're still supporting the major players who can get elected. They're not.

Llama Habern: 43:53

But they'll also primary people that they don't think are serving the needs of their community.

Julie Fernatt: 43:57

So, you know, so there's some really interesting things going on in the way of parties in the state. But yeah, I think seeing that independent number keep growing. It says a lot that people are tired of the fight. They're tired of the war. They want to find ways to work together and, you know, so.

Candice Schutter: 44:12

Well, and that came to mind too, as you were speaking about the youth.

Llama Habern: 44:15

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 44:16

Right. Because that feels super connected to getting the youth involved.'Cause I think they.

Llama Habern: 44:20

Absolutely.

Candice Schutter: 44:20

Look at this two party system and just roll their eyes up into their head and they get stuck there. Right.

Llama Habern: 44:24

I don't blame'em.

Candice Schutter: 44:25

I don't either.

Llama Habern: 44:25

I do too.

Candice Schutter: 44:26

Yeah, exactly. There are many countries that have multiple political parties within.

Llama Habern: 44:30

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 44:30

Their systems. Yeah?

Llama Habern: 44:31

And mostly, in many cases. I'll speak about the UK, which is one I'm more familiar with. You don't have a party that has a majority, often. You often have to form a coalition with other parties or other representatives of those parties in order to have a functional government.

Candice Schutter: 44:47

Yes.

Llama Habern: 44:48

And so you will have, you know, a coalition of two, three, even more parties that are the functioning government and are working together. But they're a coalition. Which means that, you know, they have different issues that call them, different values perhaps. But they know how to work together to work for their collective goal, which I would hope is the betterment of their country.

Candice Schutter: 45:08

Right. Yeah, it's so important to look at other countries,'cause a lot of the things we're trying to do here, we act as if we're trying to do some extraordinary thing. Like universal healthcare, for example. It's like, this has been done before.

Llama Habern: 45:18

We are actually the only developed country in the world that does not have universal healthcare.

Candice Schutter: 45:22

There it is.

Julie Fernatt: 45:23

And you know, i'm gonna say this. I think a lot of what happened recently, nationally, politically, there's a reason for it.

Candice Schutter: 45:29

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 45:30

And it's that things were not working.

Candice Schutter: 45:31

Yep.

Llama Habern: 45:32

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 45:32

Um, they weren't working, whether Democrats were in charge or Republicans were in charge, they just weren't working. And people were getting fed up with it. And they wanted something to change. Now I kind of disagree with the.

Llama Habern: 45:44

The direction.

Julie Fernatt: 45:45

It took, the direction of that.

Candice Schutter: 45:45

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 45:46

But we understand the need for change.

Candice Schutter: 45:48

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 45:48

Understand the frustration.

Candice Schutter: 45:49

Same. Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 45:49

So, you know, when I see someone wearing a Trump hat, yeah, I don't agree with their politics. But I do understand their pain and their frustration of what's happened. And they're just, you know, looking for new ways. So I really, I'm very hopeful. You know, sometimes things do have to break a little bit before they get fixed.

Llama Habern: 46:07

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 46:08

And, and I think I'm really hopeful that we will come out of this stronger in the end with better systems. Um, ranked choice voting is becoming a big movement in the country. I don't know if people remember, but, you know, the California Governor's race, when Arnold Schwarzenegger won. I think they had multiple people in the governor's race to vote for.

Llama Habern: 46:28

Candidates.

Candice Schutter: 46:28

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 46:28

Yeah. Multiple candidates. People loved it. They felt empowered. They, they could vote for who they wanted to vote for. They weren't stuck with A and B, you know?

Llama Habern: 46:36

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 46:36

So yeah, I think things are gonna change a lot. I think new systems will come out. And, you know, maybe a lot of these problems that have been left to fester will start to really be addressed.

Candice Schutter: 46:45

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 46:45

Including healthcare. Because it wasn't working great anyway. And it's gonna get a lot worse.

Candice Schutter: 46:51

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 46:51

Before it gets better, but hopefully on the other end of that will be much better.

Candice Schutter: 46:56

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 46:56

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 46:57

I'm remaining hopeful.

Llama Habern: 46:58

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 46:58

And I have a whole episode on the podcast that is titled, Hope Is A Verb.

Julie Fernatt: 47:03

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 47:03

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 47:04

I like that.

Llama Habern: 47:05

If you can't find hope in the world, you have to make your own.

Candice Schutter: 47:08

That's right.

Llama Habern: 47:08

And that's difficult. It's like, no doubt that is difficult sometimes.

Candice Schutter: 47:12

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 47:12

But it's also the whole reason to exist in my opinion, right?

Candice Schutter: 47:16

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 47:16

Like, if we don't have hope, what's the point?

Candice Schutter: 47:18

Right.

Julie Fernatt: 47:18

Fascism and dictatorships thrive on fear and, uh, isolation. And, you know, the best way to combat that is to continue to experience joy and to be in community and have hope.

Llama Habern: 47:33

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 47:33

Because as long as you have that, they don't win. They, they can never win.

Candice Schutter: 47:37

So true. True.

Llama Habern: 47:47

And I just wanna touch on what Julie said about community. So one of the things we try to do at ROI is provide space for community to come together. Because one thing that we think was fairly effective in the MAGA movement was that there were a lot of people who felt they had nowhere to go.

Candice Schutter: 48:05

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 48:05

That there wasn't a space that belonged to them. And part of what the MAGA movement did was give them a space, this true, give them an identity.

Candice Schutter: 48:12

Yep.

Llama Habern: 48:13

Whether you agree with that identity or not, kind of doesn't matter. It gave them a space to be and a place to belong. So what we have been trying to do on the other side is provide space for people who maybe don't want that identity, but want a place to belong together collectively in their local community.

Candice Schutter: 48:30

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 48:30

Because like, you know, I'm, I'm 30, I spend a lot of time online. And online spaces are great, but that is not the same as having a physical community around you in person.

Candice Schutter: 48:39

That's for sure.

Llama Habern: 48:40

And so we spend a lot of time having, we call them hospitality hours. We provide food. We provide drinks. We provide space.

Candice Schutter: 48:47

The pizza was good by the way.

Llama Habern: 48:48

Thank you. I'm glad. Um, yeah, and we try to get local places too. Because you know, that matters.

Candice Schutter: 48:53

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 48:53

And it gives people a place to go where they can meet people that they already know going in. Well, we share something in common'cause you're here.

Candice Schutter: 49:01

Yes.

Llama Habern: 49:01

So let's talk further and see what else we might share. And a big thing about that is that anyone can come. It is open to literally anyone. And sometimes there are people who come that maybe don't share my beliefs. But they don't have to. We can still have a conversation and share with each other why we believe the things we believe and maybe come to a better understanding each of us. Or maybe not. Like, maybe we just disagree and agree to disagree. That's okay.

Candice Schutter: 49:29

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 49:29

But it's a space where we can have those conversations without worrying about, you know, being accused of something horrible or someone just walking out. Or, you know, whatever it might be.

Candice Schutter: 49:38

Right.

Julie Fernatt: 49:38

Right. You know? And another thing that we do too is we leave space for community need organizing. And we name our projects as they come up. Like the Penny Peace Project will always be called the Penny Project, you know, because she's the inspiration. We have something we called the Linda Project. Where we became aware of a community member, a senior woman who had lost all of her life savings to a scam and was about to go homeless. And the community came together and held a rummage sale and raised funds and got her stabilized. Got her into an apartment, you know, she's able to cover her bills right now and took care of a lot of different needs for her. It was just really great to see, because a lot of the people stepped up with different needs, you know, like does she have food security? Does she have her medical care? Yes. Does she have different people took parts. And during that rummage sale, we had people that came in, you know, wearing MAGA hats. And we had people coming in wearing pride flags, you know. And we all work together because, in these small communities, you do care about community members. You don't wanna see anybody falling like that. And so we'll use that again going forward. But whatever those community needs are, you know, it's just a great way to bring people together and say, yeah, we all, we all work together on this.

Candice Schutter: 50:44

And there's gonna be more and more people in need as this regime progresses with its agenda. So those are opportunities for people of different sensibilities to come together and create connections that could help build some future coalitions. And.

Julie Fernatt: 51:00

Exactly.

Candice Schutter: 51:00

Toward the hope that we're talking about that's on the horizon. It may seem like it's far away, but, you know.

Llama Habern: 51:05

But every step we take brings us closer.

Candice Schutter: 51:07

That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah.

Llama Habern: 51:09

And I would just add that, we were lucky enough to be in a position where we had people we could call on to start this project. Hey, we have someone who needs help. Can you help us? We had a decently long list, because we've been doing this for a little bit. But anyone can do that. If you see someone in your community that you know needs something, even if you can't provide it, maybe you can find someone who can.

Candice Schutter: 51:31

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 51:31

Maybe you can put together a group and that way you've built, honestly a family, that is around you that cares about the same things you care about and also happens to really benefit the community'cause you're taking care of each other.

Candice Schutter: 51:42

Yeah. One of the silver linings of the situation is the connections that we've been making with other people who care. And communities that are forming. Your stories of ROI and what's happening here, it's just a great example of the way that these seeds can germinate.

Llama Habern: 51:56

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 51:57

And how it's so important that we nurture these like tiny little opportunities. To help Linda.

Julie Fernatt: 52:02

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 52:02

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 52:02

To talk about Penny. How it builds that family bond you're talking about, Llama. And that, that's going to fortify us personally.

Llama Habern: 52:09

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 52:10

And then it gives us people to stand shoulder to shoulder with.

Llama Habern: 52:13

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 52:13

Which brings me to my next question. So Llama, I met you briefly at a social event after canvassing for the Democrats. And then, I saw you on stage at the Indivisible town hall for Eli Crane. And, I believe it was you in the chicken soup.

Llama Habern: 52:27

I was indeed in the chicken suit.

Candice Schutter: 52:29

So I'm curious, speaking of coalitions.'Cause your organization is your organization. And then Indivisible is its own thing. Are you all affiliated? Do organizations work together? Like how does that work?

Llama Habern: 52:39

Yeah, that's a wonderful question. And so the answer is we are pretty closely affiliated. Julie and I, you, you should have brought your hats. Oh, I do. I do have actual physical hats that have different labels on them. So I can say like. I'm wearing my ROI hat right now. Or I am wearing my Indivisible hat or.

Candice Schutter: 52:52

Oh, funny.

Llama Habern: 52:53

I even have a Democrat's hat. Okay, well wait. Like, it's funny but it's also, from somebody who studies cult dynamics, incredibly refreshing and beautiful. Like we should all have many hats.

Julie Fernatt: 53:01

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 53:01

We should.

Candice Schutter: 53:02

And belong to many groups.

Llama Habern: 53:04

We should. And you bring different parts of yourself to each of those groups.

Candice Schutter: 53:07

That's right.

Llama Habern: 53:07

And that's normal and okay.

Candice Schutter: 53:09

I love that.

Llama Habern: 53:10

But yeah, so Julie and I are actually co-leads of Indivisible Cottonwood Cornville Clarkdale.

Candice Schutter: 53:14

Okay.

Llama Habern: 53:15

Which is a local group. Jerome's kind of also in there. But there is actually talk about potentially some folks in Jerome starting their own group, which I think would be wonderful. Since the election, a group has formed in Rim Rock and in Camp Verde. And there were already two existing groups in Sedona. So just in the Verde Valley there are already five plus Indivisible groups, which I think is.

Candice Schutter: 53:34

Fabulous.

Llama Habern: 53:34

Wonderful. Because every one addresses their own specific community and the needs of those communities. Because frankly, camp Verde has different needs than Cottonwood does.

Candice Schutter: 53:43

Sure.

Julie Fernatt: 53:44

People say, why do you have all those different groups? Indivisible focuses on statewide and federal issues, national issues. And then ROI focuses specifically on local.

Candice Schutter: 53:54

Right.

Julie Fernatt: 53:55

So ROI is not gonna work on developing a Senate candidate or even a State House candidate. But Indivisible, you know, we'll show up and have people talk about issues that are being voted on at the State House or the federal level.

Llama Habern: 54:07

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 54:07

So there's different levels, you know.

Llama Habern: 54:09

And we all work together. But I think what's also one of the great things about Indivisible is if you're in the Verde Valley, you can belong to any of the groups and all of the groups if you want to.

Candice Schutter: 54:17

Yeah. I belong to more than one. Yeah.

Llama Habern: 54:18

Yeah. And I think that's great, honestly, because all of them do different things. And, uh, I heard recently that nationwide there are over 2200 Indivisible groups across the nation, which I think is fantastic. Every community has their own needs.

Candice Schutter: 54:32

Well, and what we know about humans is we can only really focus on like, 150 people at a time, right?

Llama Habern: 54:38

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 54:38

Everybody has different needs, but also it's like there's a level of intimacy that I think is super important when we're building community.

Llama Habern: 54:43

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 54:43

That's one of the ways in which larger organizing efforts fail, because they don't build the smaller, more intimate feeling connective. Because people get bound to communities because of personal relationships.

Llama Habern: 54:56

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 54:57

You know, that's when you say that, we talk so much about organizing. In urban organizing, it is really about numbers. When you've got 4 million people to reach, it's about the number of people you reach. It's number of doors, number of calls, number of this. In rural organizing, it's the exact opposite. It is relational organizing.

Candice Schutter: 55:16

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 55:16

If you don't build those personal relationships, it doesn't matter how many times you knock on their door or call their phone, it won't, won't move a thing. So yeah, we need those relationships. And you're right, 150 is the right number. We were on a call with an Indivisible group in, I think South Phoenix, but I could be wrong. That normally had around 90 people at their events. And after some recent events, they had 700 people sign up for an event.

Llama Habern: 55:40

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 55:40

And they were in a panic. I mean, they didn't.

Llama Habern: 55:42

They didn't have the capacity.

Julie Fernatt: 55:43

They didn't have the capacity. They didn't know what to do with them.

Llama Habern: 55:45

They had rent like a ballroom.

Julie Fernatt: 55:46

They didn't even know how to communicate with that many people.

Candice Schutter: 55:48

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 55:48

I mean, it was a great problem to have, you know.

Candice Schutter: 55:51

For sure.

Julie Fernatt: 55:52

But it's still a problem.

Llama Habern: 55:54

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 55:54

I mean, you still, you can't effectively coordinate them in a relational way. You could, you know, in a numbers way. You can. You can be like, boom, we're gonna give you this information.

Llama Habern: 56:02

But if you want results.

Candice Schutter: 56:04

Right. And you want input and feedback.

Julie Fernatt: 56:05

And for someone to feel like they belong. Yeah. And they did that, they broke down into some, you know, additional groups. Because otherwise you're just overwhelmed.

Candice Schutter: 56:12

Yeah, absolutely.

Julie Fernatt: 56:14

I'll say this, there's a lot of people I've talked to recently that feel very overwhelmed by everything going on in the world. And it's easy to wanna just check out, because it's just too much. And what we really recommend is, it's too much for anybody. You know, you're not wrong in feeling that way. If you really look at everything at once, you're gonna crawl in a hole and never come out.

Llama Habern: 56:31

And it's intentional. Yeah. It is designed to overwhelm you.

Julie Fernatt: 56:33

So, yeah. You know, pick one or two things. I have a friend who said, every Monday morning I make three phone calls to elected officials while I'm drinking my coffee. And then I feel like I've done something. And I'm like, you've done something huge. That's three times more than what most people do.

Candice Schutter: 56:47

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 56:48

You know, I have somebody else that's kind of dedicated. And she does five either calls or emails every morning. Once she hits five, she's done. And the nice thing about giving yourself just a set limit is that then you're done. You don't have to feel like, oh, I should be doing something. I should be doing something. You know, you did it. You did your part for the day or the week or however, whatever, you know, do one a month, whatever it is you wanna do. And then you can relax and focus on your life.

Candice Schutter: 57:12

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 57:13

Which

Candice Schutter: 57:13

is really important, you know, do that gardening. Take the hike. Yeah.

Llama Habern: 57:17

Find your joy.

Julie Fernatt: 57:17

Yeah. Find your joy. Because you've done something really important. Those phone calls to elected officials, especially, you know, state and federal.

Llama Habern: 57:26

They matter.

Julie Fernatt: 57:26

Those emails, really do matter. Their staff reads them. Even if they don't read them themselves. They tally. They let them know what their constituents are thinking. So, you know, it's an easy way to give yourself a way to be involved, but you don't have to feel like, oh, I gotta do 24/7, you know?

Candice Schutter: 57:42

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 57:42

It's not necessary.

Llama Habern: 57:43

And I just wanna point out the effectiveness of contacting your elected officials.'Cause I know a lot of times it can feel like, I'm one voice out of millions. Does it matter? It does. And part of the reason that Elon Musk of recent has been losing favor we'll say, is because constituents have been calling their congressional folks and saying, Hey, no one elected this guy. Why is he calling any shots at all? And they are pulling back. And it even, you see it in their votes. But you also see it when you're in communication with their staff or with them themselves, of they notice when they get a big influx of calls or emails or you know, whatever means of communicating you prefer, make an effort. Because it is worth it and it does make a difference.

Candice Schutter: 58:25

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 58:25

And not just on the federal level. You can also do that for your local folks. And if you don't know how to contact your local folks, I recommend Googling your area and city council or school board, and it'll bring you right to the page that usually has their contact information.

Candice Schutter: 58:39

Well, which kind of brings me to a question I wanted to ask. Because one of the things that really jumped out at me when I was listening to your other podcast interview was people running for local office.

Llama Habern: 58:49

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 58:50

And how you were saying there was a point at which there weren't even enough people running, and so whoever ran was just gonna be elected. It was just sort of a default.

Llama Habern: 58:57

Yep.

Candice Schutter: 58:57

That's how little activity can be happening on the local level.

Llama Habern: 59:01

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 59:01

And so for people, I just really wanna emphasize here. For people to really consider going to a meeting.

Llama Habern: 59:09

Yes, please.

Candice Schutter: 59:09

And like actually getting a sense of what's going on?'Cause like a lot of the people we were talking about earlier who were in these positions that ended up getting recalled probably just ended up there by default, right?

Llama Habern: 59:18

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 59:19

Well I will tell you right now in Camp Verde, there's an opening on their city council.

Llama Habern: 59:23

Town council.

Julie Fernatt: 59:24

Or town council. Yeah. There's a little difference. And the deadline for applications was yesterday. But then they extended it. Because I don't think they got any applications.

Candice Schutter: 59:32

Interesting.

Llama Habern: 59:33

So if you're living in the town limits of Camp Verde.

Julie Fernatt: 59:36

And you wanna be on city council, well go join.

Candice Schutter: 59:38

And folks could reach out to you to find out. I mean, I know it's different everywhere. But like, I know for people.'Cause I've also been asked the question, have you thought about running for something? Only twice though. So I have a long way to go.

Llama Habern: 59:48

Six more.

Candice Schutter: 59:50

Um, but I think a lot of people don't actually even understand what it entails.

Llama Habern: 59:53

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 59:54

I know for me it's like, what would that mean? What kind of a commitment it is? All that stuff.

Julie Fernatt: 59:57

The Mingus school board, I had several people say, oh, I couldn't run for school board'cause I just don't have the time. And I was like, it's one meeting a month and it's about three hours long.

Candice Schutter: 1:00:05

Wow.

Julie Fernatt: 1:00:05

And they were like, oh, well I could do that. And then some meetings, you know, this Cottonwood city council meets weekly. I mean, so is that too much pressure? But there's a board of adjustments, is it?

Llama Habern: 1:00:15

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 1:00:15

They.

Llama Habern: 1:00:16

They only need only meet if needed.

Julie Fernatt: 1:00:17

If needed. You might serve on that board and never actually go to a meeting.

Candice Schutter: 1:00:20

Right.

Llama Habern: 1:00:20

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 1:00:20

So, you know, there's a big variety of levels of commitment with different positions. But.

Llama Habern: 1:00:25

And I will say some are compensated. Not a lot necessarily, but city councils and school board, or not, sorry. School boards are typically not paid. But city councils and mayors do get paid a little bit. Again, not a lot.

Candice Schutter: 1:00:37

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:00:37

But it's something that can help compensate for that time needed. And for anyone who is interested in learning more, you can always visit our website at roi.vote. Feel free to contact us, and I'd be delighted to share more information about how to run for office. And just what positions are out there.

Candice Schutter: 1:00:52

Yes. In the show notes, I'll link to your website for sure. Any other resources you wanna share with people. Because I know there's a lot of people who are just like, what can I do? I've made phone calls. I have a little bit of bandwidth to give, but I just don't know where to give it.

Llama Habern: 1:01:06

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 1:01:06

So we're saying, community connections. Find out what needs to happen in your community, get involved. Go to your local meetings.

Julie Fernatt: 1:01:12

There's indivisible groups everywhere. If you go to Indivisible.org uh, you can find a local group and join up with them. If there's not a local group, then form one.

Candice Schutter: 1:01:21

And then think about running for a local office or serving on a board and being a person who's one of those decision makers.

Llama Habern: 1:01:28

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 1:01:29

Because I know we all feel like, I don't wanna speak for everyone. I feel a little powerless from time to time around all of this. So to have any little bit of influence over things moving in the direction we want is super critical right now.

Julie Fernatt: 1:01:43

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:01:43

And I'll say, one reason that I focus on local is because I do see the actual impact I can have. And I'm with everyone else. It's overwhelming right now. There's a lot going on. And it can feel like I'm one person calling my congressman. Does it matter? It does matter. But at the same time, if you want to be able to see the impact a little more closely.

Julie Fernatt: 1:02:05

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:02:06

Local is a great place to start. Because I will give an example. Clarkdale the town right next to us, their town council race last year, one of our candidates lost by 15 votes. That's it. 15.

Candice Schutter: 1:02:20

Wow.

Llama Habern: 1:02:21

And I mean, that poor candidate was like, oh, if I'd knocked on 20 more. And I'll say those candidates collectively, between Cottonwood and Clarkdale, they knocked more doors in this area than have ever been knocked before. And it was the candidates themselves reaching out to voters saying, Hey, I'm running. Do you know what's happening? Are you interested in supporting me? And there are a lot of people who voted just because, Hey, they showed up at my door.

Candice Schutter: 1:02:41

Totally.

Llama Habern: 1:02:41

They cared enough to come talk to me.

Candice Schutter: 1:02:43

Absolutely. Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:02:44

That's what matters. And when it is local, you know, as little as 15 votes can swing it one way or the other. But also, not a lot of people are voting in those races, because they don't know about them. They don't know, you know, they just see names. And there's not that easy guide of D or R next to the names. That's

Candice Schutter: 1:03:00

true. Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:03:01

It's not even easy to make a default decision. But it's worth doing a little bit of research and seeing which candidates do have the values that they share with you. And also, hey, your one vote can really make a big difference.

Candice Schutter: 1:03:14

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 1:03:14

You know, along those lines, I wanna put a little plug in for local fundraising.

Llama Habern: 1:03:19

Yes.

Julie Fernatt: 1:03:19

You know, everybody's getting hit with fundraising requests from multiple organizations. And we usually kind of advise, just unsubscribe and block all the big ones. I mean, I know they're gonna hate me for saying this. But the thing is, on a local level, if you have a hundred dollars to give, if you have$10 to give, you know, you can put that towards the Senate or presidential campaign. It's the tiniest drop in the ocean when you do that. But if you give$10 to a local city council candidate or a local Indivisible, or ROI, or RAZE and RAZA who are doing great work, you know, all throughout the state of Arizona.$10 a hundred dollars really matters to them.

Candice Schutter: 1:03:58

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 1:03:58

It goes so much further. It keeps it in your local community.

Llama Habern: 1:04:02

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 1:04:02

Or, you know, your state that has an impact where you live. So I just really, you know, as far as fundraising goes, just block out all the noise. And pick one or two, you know, statewide or local groups that are really doing the work on the ground that you care about.

Llama Habern: 1:04:18

And I would just add that for anyone out there who feels like, oh, but I can't unsubscribe, that just seems so mean, or, you know, whatever. People have different feelings about that. It's actually better when you unsubscribe. Because once you've unsubscribed, they can't send you a new text. And every text costs money. So you are actually saving them.

Candice Schutter: 1:04:34

Oh.

Llama Habern: 1:04:34

I mean, it's not a lot of money, it's like 5 cents a text, but you were saving them money by just unsubscribe. So on the flip side, if you wanna cost them money, you can stay on the list. But for, you know, the ones where you're like, oh, I do like you, I just don't really wanna get five fundraising texts a week. Unsubscribe. It makes your life easier. Maybe it communicates a little bit something to them about the frequency of how much they're texting.

Candice Schutter: 1:04:55

True.

Llama Habern: 1:04:55

But it also does actually save them money, so.

Candice Schutter: 1:04:57

That's interesting.

Llama Habern: 1:04:57

Mm-hmm.

Julie Fernatt: 1:04:58

Yeah, that's good.

Candice Schutter: 1:04:58

That is really interesting. So final question.

Llama Habern: 1:05:01

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 1:05:02

The No Kings protest is coming up.

Llama Habern: 1:05:03

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 1:05:05

So we talked about coalitions and showing up locally and showing up to these larger scale events and stuff. Like how, is your organization involved in an event like that? And what are your thoughts on protesting? What do you want people to know in regards to that?

Llama Habern: 1:05:17

Yeah, that is a great question. So for those that don't know, the No Kings protest is scheduled for June 14th, which is Flag Day and also happens to be a certain President's birthday. So he is throwing a giant military parade that will cost a whole lot of money for taxpayers in DC. And so part of what a national coalition of progressive organizations is doing, and Indivisible is one of the organizations leading this charge, but there's actually I think there's like at least a hundred organizations involved in this coalition. Um, everywhere except DC, we are having local protests to bring people together and say, Hey, we don't want kings. The whole reason this country was formed was'cause we didn't want a king.

Candice Schutter: 1:05:57

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:05:58

We're not getting one now. And so, for us here in the Verde Valley, we have the No Kings Verde Valley protest planned for June 14th. I wanna say it's 9:00 AM to 11:00 AM We're still ironing out.Some of the details. But I believe you can go to nokings.org to see a map for your area of what protests are in the area. But here in the Verde Valley, I think there are at least 10 organizations that are kind of co-sponsoring this event.

Candice Schutter: 1:06:22

Mm-hmm.

Llama Habern: 1:06:22

Um, different Indivisible groups, ROI, uh, different party groups. There's a lot of groups involved in this because yeah, we do have to work in coalition. Because we all share the same values. And right now the value is, hey, we don't want a king. That's kind of a core American value in my opinion. We hope you can come or go to one near you, wherever you are. And I believe it's nokings.org, but if not, you can definitely just Google No Kings plus your area and it will show up.

Candice Schutter: 1:06:49

Absolutely. Yeah. I hope everyone gets involved. I'll definitely be attending. And just to connect what we've talked about with this upcoming event. When we think about Penny and we think about the Penny project. And we think about these culture war divides and antagonizers that are very often sent to these protests to try to push people's buttons and stir up trouble, which could potentially justify Trump invoking the Insurrection Act, which he of course wants to do at some point. Any thoughts around how to translate the message of the Penny project to our protesting activities. And when we're in a situation where we are met with culture war bullies who were trying to bait us and push our buttons. I put a little, I have a group on Facebook for the podcast. And I put a little thing up like I'm gonna interview some local organizers. Anybody have any questions? And somebody sent me a meme that was talking about some idea where if something starts to erupt, that everyone will like peacefully just sit on the ground, right. That that would be one way to respond, to communicate to the police or the authorities. That's not us. Do you have any thoughts around that?

Llama Habern: 1:07:53

Julie actually has a great story about that.

Julie Fernatt: 1:07:55

I've seen that happen in, in, in real life in 2002, maybe it was, in a big protest in New York against the Iraq war. And there was a group a little further ahead of us that had this kind of green dragon thing. Everybody was watching it as we went through the protest. And right when we got in front of the Fox News Studios, a fight broke out with that group. And that happened. Everybody sat down. It, it was like a wave going each direction.

Candice Schutter: 1:08:20

Mm.

Julie Fernatt: 1:08:20

And suddenly, there was about six guys that were, you could tell fake throwing punches at each other.

Candice Schutter: 1:08:25

Uh-huh.

Julie Fernatt: 1:08:26

And pushing each other and looking around so confused.

Candice Schutter: 1:08:29

Oh. Because, so they were pretending that.

Julie Fernatt: 1:08:31

They were trying to start. Because they knew if they pushed you into somebody and then that person got mad and pushed.

Candice Schutter: 1:08:35

Right.

Julie Fernatt: 1:08:35

Then they could start this little riot right in front of the.

Llama Habern: 1:08:38

On camera.

Julie Fernatt: 1:08:38

Fox News Studios. And instead, they were just really awkward. And the police just came in and took'em out. And everybody else just stood up and walked on. And it was, it became a non-event. And, you know, had they been successful. The story of the day would've been the riot on that street.

Candice Schutter: 1:08:55

That's right.

Llama Habern: 1:08:56

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 1:08:56

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 1:08:56

And instead, the whole thing was completely peaceful. So we really recommend that. When you see violence, don't jump in, don't try to save somebody. Every organized protestor event has people that they call peacekeepers whose job it is to take care of these situations when they happen. If that's not your job, then it's not your job. Sit down, walk away, don't engage. When somebody tries to engage, you just turn and walk the other direction. Study Martin Luther King, the non-violence. Sometimes it's very difficult. Sometimes, you know, I expect there will be some violence. And to not respond to violence with violence is not easy. Sure.

Llama Habern: 1:09:31

But it is essential.

Julie Fernatt: 1:09:32

But it's important.

Candice Schutter: 1:09:33

Yeah. Well, I think it helps to let people know that there are people positioned who are there to deescalate the situation.

Llama Habern: 1:09:39

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 1:09:40

Who know what they're doing and to just know that they're there.

Llama Habern: 1:09:42

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 1:09:42

And just let them do what they do. And yeah, I love though that you actually have seen that in action. Sending the message. Talk about putting them on a spotlight, right? If everyone around them sits down.

Julie Fernatt: 1:09:52

And you could see their faces were just like. You know, we were just half a block back and you could see'em so well. And you could tell they were just so confused, because that was not the outcome they were expecting.

Candice Schutter: 1:10:02

Oh, that's fantastic. I love it.

Julie Fernatt: 1:10:03

And yeah, everybody sat down and linked arms and it was, it was really beautiful.

Candice Schutter: 1:10:06

That is beautiful. Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:10:08

And I will say protests are wonderful and they are an amazing tool that we have that we should absolutely use. But they're not the last step. They are one step in a journey of, you know, many steps that includes talking to your elected officials and contacting them about what matters to you and what your issues are. And also, you know, maybe writing to the newspaper to get your letter in the paper and have your neighbors see it. Or just talking with your neighbors. I mean, there's so many people that are like, oh, I have a great friend group, but we never talk politics. And I get it. I really do get it. I personally, I'm not capable of that. Politics is my entire life. But I do understand it. But at the same time, it's worth broaching a conversation. And it doesn't have to start with, so what do you think of Trump?

Candice Schutter: 1:10:51

Right, right.

Llama Habern: 1:10:52

Maybe don't start there. But it can be a basic of, you know, like, Hey, how are these recent cuts gonna affect you? Like for example, I am on AHCCCS, which is Medicaid in Arizona. These effects will very much affect me.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:03

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:11:03

I am disabled, and I need medical care and I may not be able to get it.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:07

Yeah.

Llama Habern: 1:11:08

But if you don't know me, you don't know that unless I tell you. If we don't have that conversation, how can you know?

Candice Schutter: 1:11:13

Yeah.

Julie Fernatt: 1:11:13

There's a lot of people that are right now are saying, well, politics don't really affect me, that are about to get affected in a very big way.

Llama Habern: 1:11:19

In a major way.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:19

In a real, yeah, it's gonna hit home.

Julie Fernatt: 1:11:20

In a real way.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:21

It's gonna hit home.

Julie Fernatt: 1:11:21

And it's, it's gonna be terrible.

Llama Habern: 1:11:23

But when that does happen, there are things you can do to let your elected officials know that you are not happy with these decisions. But also, to get out and get engaged with other people who are feeling the same pain that you are feeling.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:34

Yeah. Just to know you're not alone.

Llama Habern: 1:11:36

Huge.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:36

Goes so far. It goes so far. And a lot of times, we think we need to come together to find solutions. And sometimes there aren't any easy answers. We just need to come together.

Llama Habern: 1:11:45

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:46

We just need to come together. And I'm just so grateful for the work that you do. And to be floundering, like I think a lot of us are feeling in this fascist reality. To just know that there's soft places to land.

Llama Habern: 1:11:58

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter: 1:11:59

And pragmatic actions to take.

Llama Habern: 1:12:01

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 1:12:02

I hope that you're inspiring people out there in other communities to follow suit and to just apply some of the things we've talked about today. And definitely. Huge shout out to Penny.

Julie Fernatt: 1:12:13

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 1:12:14

And the work that she did. And the way that she's continuing to have an impact. Inspiring us to not take the bait of the bullies. And to just do what's important and to show up for the people that really need us to show up for them and for each other. So thank you so much.

Llama Habern: 1:12:26

Yeah. Thank you for having us.

Julie Fernatt: 1:12:28

Thank you.

Candice Schutter: 1:12:28

Yeah, of course.

Llama Habern: 1:12:28

This has been great.

Julie Fernatt: 1:12:29

And again, if anybody wants more information or help on how to do things in their own community, they can reach out to us through our website at roi.vote.

Candice Schutter: 1:12:40

Thanks for tuning into the Deeper Pulse. And bye for now.