#84 - Q Her A: The 'Cult'ure Series Finale

Right around the time Candice was puzzling over how to wrap the 'cult'ure series, regular contributor Tracy Stamper reached out to ask: Hey, Can I Q Her A? The result is the series finale where Candice responds to a long list of listener questions like: What's it been like carrying on in the face of backlash? How has this project been impactful on a personal level? Were there any unexpected surprises? And what's next? Also: Tracy offers up a somewhat surprising personal revelation. Candice speaks to the personal code of ethics she developed while producing this work. They speak candidly about the appeal of high-arousal states (vs. the maybe-middle ground), then Tracy asks Candice if she's willing to predict what might happen next at ‘the Org.’ Recovery from reflexive people-pleasing is discussed, which leads Candice to an ah-hah around the word "spiritual" and why it's so over-used. When asked about leadership, she gets fired up around outdated definitions and shares why she's made such an effort to ensure the series *not* become another cult-personality led movement. Plus, many other A’s to your Q’s! And be sure to listen to the end; Tracy's final question goes somewhere unexpected and speaks to the very heart of this work.

Thanks for tuning into the 'cult'ure series. If you'd like to keep your finger on The Deeper Pulse, consider joining the growing community over on Patreon where Candice will continue to rollout monthly bonus episodes indefinitely.

Referenced in this episode:

• DD#62 - Good Girl’ Intervention (Patreon bonus)
• But It’s Not A Cult - social media post 
• Shame Persists Because - follow-up rant
• Solo Episodes referenced - Ep.39 & Ep.40
• DD#42 - The Tired Goose (Patreon bonus)

Transcript

Candice Schutter: 0:13

Welcome back to The Deeper Pulse. Well folks, this is it. The final episode in the'cult'ure series. And after 52 episodes on the main feed, and believe it or not, 70 more over on Patreon, I'm finally calling it quits. For weeks, I was puzzling over how on earth to wrap this project. And then, I got a text from good friend of the pod and regular contributor, Tracy Stamper, asking if she could interview me. On the downlow, she'd pulled together a list of listener questions. And so she and I sat down for a three hour QHerA session, which I soon after dropped in two parts over on Patreon. And when I was listening back to it while doing edits, it occurred to me that it might just be the perfect way to wrap this series. So today I'm going to share with you some of the best bits, and if you want to hear the whole two part QHerA session, you can find it over at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. So let's get right to it. And one last reminder, the stories and opinions shared here are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization. Okay, so first off, I gotta say that wrapping up this series is bittersweet. It feels right, for reasons you'll hear me speak about here in a bit, but it's also kind of weird timing. Because when I watch the news, scroll on social media, or even just have everyday conversations, high demand influence is no longer lurking in the shadows. It's become a normalized part of the mainstream. It's made its way to Washington and it's waging more than one unjust war abroad. And I'm not trying to be a downer, all I mean to say is, well, what I've been saying all along, which is that culty culture is every damn where, and it's not going to let up anytime soon. The point really is that this content may be more relevant now than it was when the project first began, which is in part why it's gone on as long as it has, because there's really no end to the number of stories that we could share here. But what's also true is that I have been laboring on this podcast for a little over three years and, while it has fed me in many, many ways, which you're going to hear about soon, it's also cost me a lot in time, labor, and resources. And to be clear, I have zero regrets about having given my all to this project. But 130 plus hours of'cult'ure series content, that's how much my guests and I have created here and over on Patreon. And I guess what I'm saying is, I feel like I've said enough and it's time to move on. When Tracy first invited me to sit down for this QHerA session, I was willing, but also a little skeptical. I mean, is there really more for me to say? But I was soon after inspired by so many great questions offered by listeners and colleagues, questions that really helped me to summarize some of the main takeaways from this series as a whole. The first half of this episode focuses on questions from listeners and members of our After the Org recovery community. And then midway through, Tracy, who's been ride or die through nearly every twist and turn of this series. She asked me her own heart hitting questions, and I share my biggest takeaways and speak to where I plan to go from here. You're going to hear us make reference to some Patreon bonus episodes that were never streamed here on the main feed. So, if you're curious, I'm going to link to the particulars in the show notes. Okay, let's get to it.

Tracy Stamper: 4:11

So shall we?

Candice Schutter: 4:13

We shall. Let's just jump in.

Tracy Stamper: 4:15

The first question is:"You have made many sacrifices to do this work, including the risk of litigation. What motivates you and where do you gather strength?"

Candice Schutter: 4:29

It's a good question.

Tracy Stamper: 4:33

I know nothing like starting off with mention of litigation.

Candice Schutter: 4:36

Yeah. Let's just get right in there. Um, well, first, I mean, the first thing that came to mind when you said what motivates you was the word privilege. Because, you know, if you've listened to the podcast and you know my story and where I came from, my reality has changed dramatically in the last, you know, a decade and a half or so, a couple of decades. And even more dramatically since childhood. And I really feel like a real deep connection to the idea that with privilege comes great responsibility. And I have through a series of events that I won't go into, I landed at a point going into the pandemic, because of some choices that my partner and I made that freed us up financially and made it so that the pandemic wasn't so intense on us. And it gave me an opportunity to do some deep soul searching and deep diving during the pandemic. It was actually a really beautiful time for me in that way. A mixed bag, but for the most part, because of the privilege I had, that I didn't have to work, which is a massive privilege from somebody who has been working since she was 15. It was like, huge. And realizing I had a voice that I wanted to explore and find, and the podcast was the way for me to do that. And I wouldn't have been able to do any of it, were it not for the privilege, the time and the space. Now, we've since burned through a lot of that, that reserve. Which is why I launched the Patreon and have been just trying to recoup my overhead and, and keep my head above water. But the most honest answer to the question, and I'll go further with it in a minute, but the most honest answer is because I could. And I was motivated by the time and the space I had to do a thing that I just wanted to do because I wanted to do it, not because I had to do it to make money and to survive. And that is a huge gift to have any season, any period of life in this culture, where you don't have to grind and you can do that. So I've been able to really devote myself to this. So my motivation was, I have this season, I want to make it matter and mean something and I'm going to use it and, um, yeah. So that's part 1 of the answer. And then the 2nd half in terms of, like, what motivates me when it comes to the emotional labor of it, maybe I think is kind of what people wonder about. I'm continually asked. That it must be grueling. That it must be intense. For me, it's not really that, and I don't know why. I don't know if it's because I grew up in chaos. I don't know if it's because I'm good in crisis. I don't know if it's because I was a coach, there's that word, for, you know, 15 plus years and I sat with people through dark times over and over and over and over again.

Tracy Stamper: 7:31

Oh, wow. Okay.

Candice Schutter: 7:32

I developed the capacity to do that. I don't know if it's just my temperament. I'm not sure, but it doesn't floor me to sit in difficult truths with people. For me I feel at home there, because I feel less alone. And I feel like I had to hold so much of my truth close, and it sort of held me hostage for so long that there's a liberation in sitting with somebody and being like, what's the thing you're most afraid to say? Let's talk about it. I just, it fuels me in a strange way. It's not to say I don't get empathy exhaustion. I do. But I've taken breaks. I've learned to monitor. And again, because of the privilege I have and because I refused to be chained to advertisers who are going to force me to roll out content when I don't want to. I've been able to stay in my integrity. So that's why the answer keeps circling back to privilege for me.

Tracy Stamper: 8:24

Sure.

Candice Schutter: 8:25

Because a lot of the choices I've been able to make really stem from that. So does that answer the question?

Tracy Stamper: 8:31

It does. So that definitely answers the question about what motivates you. And then the next aspect, where do you gather strength? I loved that.

Candice Schutter: 8:41

That's a great part. Yeah. Thank you for that. Well, Tracy, for sure. I mean, you have been such a lifeline for me, a release valve. Like you've really championed this work. You've walked alongside me with such humility. You've helped to ground me. And I think the levity that you bring, which is really also, very rooted in a depth of understanding at the same time has been really helpful for me. Um, so your companionship through this project has been absolutely essential to its success and to its longevity, especially. Because if I didn't have you to lean into, somebody who really gets it and is really like in the arena with me, I don't know that I would have been able to continue. So you are a big part of what motivates me and gives me strength. Obviously my partnership with my partner and, and the friendships that I have, the relationships in my life. And like I said before, just knowing that I'm not alone in the experiences that I've felt have made me feel like I've been gaslighting myself for years around so much of the things that I've been able to name and to sit down with people who can relate and understand and get it. Like that's extremely fortifying and reassuring. And, and then ultimately I feel freer than I've ever felt before doing this work, being this honest. Learning how to be honest, because there's also levels of truth that I haven't touched publicly. And also, I was just thinking about this this morning, there's certain truths and honesties that I think are better kept close. So, not to say that I need to bare all. You know, there was a time when I was an oversharer, like crazy, because that's what I thought was the antidote. But there's like a middle ground. I feel like I'm finding it. I feel like I'm finally finding it and that's really given me a lot of just confidence in myself, you know. And you mentioned the litigation thing. Yeah, that's been a fear all along. But also, you know, I went back to school in 2021 to get my Master's in Social Impact, because I wanted my life to stand for something. I didn't want it to just be about me and my myopic wellness journey. I wanted it to matter and to mean something in a larger way. And I didn't know how to make that transition and that leap. And and when it comes to fear of bullies and litigation and pushback and all that, I've really learned, I mean, I've talked a lot about it in recent weeks on the pod. If anything, it motivates me. The thing that pushed me to remain silent has become the thing that pushes me to speak now. It's the same, those same forces. And there's no way in hell I would have had the courage to do it in the first place and now continue doing it if I wasn't looking around at all these social justice activists and all these people doing it every single day, being far more courageous than me, stepping into the line of fire that far exceeds anything that I've touched. I feel like this is like one little small thing that I can do when there's people out there really risking their lives. Like literally, putting their lives on the line for the sake of what's right. Like, That's extremely motivating and encouraging and it gives me a lot of strength. So, yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 12:10

Absolutely. And I love that something that I've absolutely loved throughout the series is your presencing privilege. Constantly just a reminder. This is what it is. This is how it shows up. These are my choice points within privilege.

Candice Schutter: 12:26

I'm sure that there's so many blind spots that I have around it still. Like that certain folks who listen, who've had different lived experience than me, hear it and notice it. And they're like, yeah, well, right there, lady. And, and I, I, I think that's part of what being, you know, willing to step in the arena is I'm gonna get knocked on my ass and I'm gonna feel humbled and that's part of it. But I'm gonna get back up and I'm gonna keep showing up like that's part of the learning for me. And I don't think you can build that kind of strength before you actually do it. I think the only way to build that kind of strength is just to jump in, you know.

Tracy Stamper: 12:57

And to show up in the arena. And to end up sometimes with your face down in the dirt.

Candice Schutter: 13:04

That's right. That's right.

Tracy Stamper: 13:08

Have you felt at points throughout this series that you have been facedown in the dirt in the arena?

Candice Schutter: 13:17

Um, yes and no. Not in the way that I feared, gratefully. Like I, I haven't been sued yet.

Tracy Stamper: 13:28

Yeah. We're looking for wood.

Candice Schutter: 13:30

See, there are still some superstitions at work in me. Um. Not in the ways that I expected. That's just the short answer to that.

Tracy Stamper: 13:38

Okay.

Candice Schutter: 13:40

It was, for me, it was more a matter of learning how to handle criticism and, uh, feedback, mostly unsolicited. Um, and, and the idea and the knowing and the realization and understanding that there are people out there who really think that I have ill intent, that I, you know, am clueless, all the things I won't go into, that there are people out there who misunderstand me. Going into this creation of this podcast, being misunderstood is my greatest fear in life. And now I'm misunderstood consistently. And in the beginning, that used to lay me flat on my face. And I would, I would take a break and I'd be like, oh my God, oh. You know. But now I can be misunderstood. I can stay standing. So the things that knocked me down were objectively benign, but they were growth points for me. So I have. But nothing, nothing like I feared. Nothing like I feared.

Tracy Stamper: 14:43

That's amazing.

Candice Schutter: 14:45

It is.

Tracy Stamper: 14:46

It's a great answer.

Candice Schutter: 14:47

And it could happen next week. I mean. Who knows?

Tracy Stamper: 14:50

There is that.

Candice Schutter: 14:51

Who knows? Yeah. Exactly so.

Tracy Stamper: 14:54

Okay, so, um, let's. Let's see, I'll go from there to just a real general question that I know I've been curious about, and obviously folks in ATO have been curious about since we got this question."How has this process impacted you personally?" And you've touched on that a bit already so.

Candice Schutter: 15:21

Yeah, I feel like I've been really transparent about that from the beginning as that was part of the purpose of the project for me personally. So, it kind of connects to another question, which is like, what is the purpose of this project for you personally? And I think it's really to uncover myself and my expression. And so part of that has been sharing along the way. Like, this is what's happening for me personally. This is where it's going next. This is. So I feel like the answer to that question is sort of woven throughout the series through the pod, through the podcast from the very beginning, but particularly the'cult'ure series where I became more transparent around it all. Um, I think it's just, uh, I feel like a filter has been dissolved. That's the best way to describe it in a nutshell. And not that I don't still have things to work on and filters to work, but like this really, like the one that led me to my therapist's office January of 2022, where I was just like, I can't push through. There's this thing that stands between me and the way I show up that I just can't get around. That has dissolved. And now, you know, I don't feel that same block. That's been a huge hurdle for me to clear. So that's probably the biggest thing. And then connecting me to a community of people who, some of whom I missed, some of whom I didn't know yet. Some of whom, and this has been the biggest thing for me lately, are far outside of the community really insular spaces that I've occupied for most of my life. And really seeing through eyes that I didn't even think to even ask about or be curious about, or, you know, like, I don't know, it's just been expansive. Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 17:17

The word insular really piqued my curiosity. You and I have talked about, and you've talked a lot through the episodes about the myopic nature of wellness. How aware of that were you when you started the series and has that shifted for you?

Candice Schutter: 17:38

I would say I started the series because I became aware of it.

Tracy Stamper: 17:44

Okay.

Candice Schutter: 17:46

Because I went, got my master's at like a nonprofit college, that nobody's heard of, that lets everybody in, that I purposefully chose an environment that was really diverse. Diverse in terms of, you know, life experience, race, income, all the things, and that's why I picked it, is that I wanted to be exposed to different points of view. And it was in that experience that I realized just how isolated I'd been. And I started the podcast towards the end of getting my master's degree. And then I started the'cult'ure series after that. So I was waking up to it, but I hadn't yet unraveled my own accountability around it. How the experiences that I had, the ways in which I was quote unquote, a victim of the culture was also what made me a perpetrator of those same harms. And that's the piece that I couldn't touch until I started the series. I just was like, I have to tell the story, you know. I had to ease into that part. But I, I was aware of the myopia. And I was aware of it on certain, I would say from the perspective of class and gender, I was aware of it the whole time. There were a lot of things that were out of reach for me. There were things I could reach for that others couldn't in terms of, you know, income level. There were certain privileges that I had because I looked the way that I did and I had the body that I did and the color of skin that I did. Um, I was aware of a lot of those things. I just wasn't unselfish enough to really not just take what I could get quite honestly. I was hungry for it and, uh, blind in a lot of ways. So I, I don't know if the answer's the question, but yeah, going into the series, I think I was already waking up to it. It's just the series helped me to figure out what was I waking up to exactly?

Tracy Stamper: 19:40

Beautiful. Yeah. So this is a question that it can go any direction you want."What has surprised you most about doing this work in regards to others responses, your responses, energy demands?" And there are 2 more, I'm going to save the other 2 for. Okay.

Candice Schutter: 20:04

I was surprised by how many people were interested in the topic. Which seems ridiculous now that I know what I know. But I was just like, oh, I'm gonna tell this story about my experiences with this company. And like, I didn't, I didn't know how far the rabbit hole went, and I didn't realize there were so many people who are going to be able to relate. So I was really slow burn surprised around all that. Um, I was surprised that I didn't see before the very clear and glaring overlap between the cult dynamics that happen on the micro level in small spaces and the larger cultural landscapes and the challenges and the things that have long frustrated me and so many of us, some more than others because of the impact, about culture at large. Like how easy it was to draw those clear lines surprised me. And then how it's all played out now, where, literally, there's like a cult trying to take over the White House. It's been a little bit like, uh, brain rattling. Um. So in that way, it connects to the energy demand, because I didn't realize what I was biting off. Like, I didn't understand where this was going to go. So that's been surprising. Um, the first thing you said really jumped out at me, though. I had like a strong visceral response. You said other people's response. Is that what you said?

Tracy Stamper: 21:23

What has surprised you most about doing this work in regards to others responses?

Candice Schutter: 21:29

Yeah. I feel a little even trepidation speaking to that, because I don't want anyone to feel that I'm picking on them. But I just want to answer it honestly.

Tracy Stamper: 21:43

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 21:46

I'm surprised and some days really saddened by how many people seem to get it, but don't get it. I hear a lot from people that are really understandably disgusted by a lot of the stories that have been shared. And, and really genuinely empathetically connected to the people sharing the stories and the pain and, and seem to understand what I'm saying and what's the problem. But then, I also see a lot of lateral moves. I see a lot of people scooting over into something, that from my perspective, seems not the same. It's different. But seems like it's a real similar this in terms of the systems, it appears to be very similar. It, it looks to me like cult hopping as somebody who's done it a lot. And again, as I'm sharing all this, like I am guilty of every single ounce of this. And I'm sure, you know, potentially still am. But I'm surprised by how often somebody will appear to understand the deeper pulse of what's being spoken to, but then there later appears to be evidence that they only superficially understand it. They don't really get it. And and I, it took me a really long time to get it. So I'm again, I'm not picking on anyone. But I'm just answering the question honestly. I'm surprised by how often that happens. And it breaks my heart a little bit. And it makes me afraid you didn't ask this, but I'm just going to say it that people are going to take this work and leverage it as something that's healing and different from, and they're going to create something really similar using this work as the vehicle to do it. And that, I just feel sadness around it. I just feel sadness. I just feel like this conditioning and the degree to which we've been indoctrinated by cultures at large by like humankind, epigenetically for centuries, is so ingrained in us that we just can't help ourselves. And that's the thing that surprises me, even though it shouldn't. It just surprises me when it shows up because I thought we made all this headway. And then, it's like, three steps forward, four steps back kind of thing. I guess I just have to check my expectations. That we all have to live through the learning of these lessons. And that it's never going to be like, oh, I'm going to listen to this podcast series or read this book or whatever and get this and understand it and not walk into the lair. You know, it's like we have to walk in and get ourselves out and then do it again and do it again and do it again. And we wake up a little bit more each time. And I just, um, the idealist in me, I guess is still a little punch drunk on the idea that we don't have to do that. But I think that's just how it works.

Tracy Stamper: 24:42

Ooh. Punch drunk. I love that term. So what, in terms of punch drunkness, what would you say you were most punch drunk about at the beginning of this project that has shifted now?

Candice Schutter: 25:00

I don't know. I think I was just high on the idea that it wasn't okay to just be myself. And it was so, it had permeated to such a depth I didn't think I'd ever wake from that spell. And that circles me back to like, what, what has personally been transformative about it for me? It's like, oh, I can just be myself. And the consequences will be mixed bag. But I'm still going to be left standing. I, as Aimee said, in the'good-girl' episode, I didn't die.

Tracy Stamper: 25:36

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 25:39

I did it. I stood up. I was myself and I didn't die and I do it every day now and it gets easier and easier.

Tracy Stamper: 25:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 25:48

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 25:49

So what surprised you the most about the energy demands of the project?

Candice Schutter: 25:57

All the stories pouring in.

Tracy Stamper: 25:59

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 26:01

I mean, I knew, we both knew, right? We both knew going into this, people are going to know who we're talking about. Because where we were visible within the organization that we're exposing. Even though we're using aliases, folks are going to know. It's going to circulate. And we knew we would probably hear from a person here or there. But I didn't realize the degree to which folks would reach out. And I, just to be clear, I love it when people reach out, but it is, it is an energy demand. I mean, it's just, it's an emotional labor that I didn't necessarily anticipate. But it also kept me afloat because it was like, oh, we're not alone, like, we can keep going. going because there's actually people who are listening. And it is very weird. I've said this before, creating a podcast, because it is like often crickets and tumbleweeds. You see the downloads, but you don't hear from anybody usually, cause it's not an interactive thing. And so you're just kind of like, ooh, are they loving it? Or hating it? I don't know. Right. So it helps to hear from people. But I just didn't realize how much harm was out there, I guess.

Tracy Stamper: 27:01

Yeah. Okay, so I am curious if there were any mottos or just phrases that you told yourself to keep going or to keep yourself focused. And I'll give you an example. So, for me, when I first left the Org, the role of training was removed from me. And then it was my choice whether or not to continue teaching. And I obviously decided not to continue teaching. And it felt scary and new and terrifying. And something that I, which might come as a bit of a surprise, something that I told myself to kind of keep myself going was, Tracy, you can always go back to teaching. So, even once I started speaking publicly and sharing my story, it was soothing for me to remind myself, I can always go back if I want to. And for whatever reason, that gave me the courage to keep going.

Candice Schutter: 28:22

Even when you were in this project, that was a helpful reminder for you?

Tracy Stamper: 28:27

At the very beginning, it was. At the very beginning. And it was.

Candice Schutter: 28:32

And when you say go back teaching, do you mean teaching the Org specific? Like I can be a member of the Org again? Or did you just mean I can do the movement again? What do you mean?

Tracy Stamper: 28:43

In the beginning, a member of the Org.

Candice Schutter: 28:47

Interesting.

Tracy Stamper: 28:47

It was so terrifying and unknown for me to release that.

Candice Schutter: 28:54

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 28:55

It soothed my nervous system to be able to keep reminding myself. And it got, I mean, let's be serious. It got more and more ludicrous imagining me going back to teaching the Org. But for whatever reason, that just that reminder paved the way for me to be able to keep going. And I'm really curious if there were any things that you had to tell yourself to keep going or mottos or catchphrases?

Candice Schutter: 29:30

Yeah, I mean, um, well, first just a thought I want to share on the heels of you sharing that so bravely. Is it does make sense to me. I can go back to this thing that is an anchor. This identity, this brand, this community, all the things. So, um, I'm glad that you named that for folks who are listening who are still sitting in that tension. Because I've been so far away from it for so long that I don't usually make room for that anymore at this point. So just thank you for that, Tracy. I think it's important to say that that's part of the process. And that the, the paradox of like the thing that I had to say in order to do the thing that was sort of the opposite. You know, it actually does make sense when it comes to the human psyche, because we are odd creatures.

Tracy Stamper: 30:19

We are, I've noticed.

Candice Schutter: 30:20

Creatures. But to answer your question about things that kept me going. Um, definitely the'never always' thing, when I started the podcast was the mantra that carried me through putting it out there. Because it was almost like this disclaimer, never always, subject to change. I'm going to tell you what I believe and think right now with the caveat that it will change. And that it will evolve. And that I will contradict myself in five minutes or five years or whatever. Like that is essential for me in order to show up. And do I need to justify myself to people that way? No, probably not. But I needed it, to do it for me. I need to be like, Hey everybody, just so you know. Because it's scary. It's scary showing up and knowing that the things we say, especially in this culture now where people can screen grab something from five years ago and be like, see. In your face. I just wanted it to be known, like, yeah, I know that that could happen. And bring it because of course, never always. So that one's huge. And then another one is I can stop doing this at any time. That was really helpful for me. I am in charge here. Nobody's forcing me into the spotlight. I can step out as often as I want for as long as I want. And I can call it quits whenever I feel done, whenever I feel too tender or whatever. So, I don't have to do any of this. I guess it's one way to describe it in like a sentence. It's just telling myself like you don't have to do this, Candice. You don't have to. And even when people would come and say like, keep going, it's so great what you're doing. And I would appreciate the encouragement, but I would also feel like, yeah, easy for you to say. I mean, I appreciate it. And also, not to say that these people were saying this to me, but I would have to remind myself, like, I don't owe this to anybody.

Tracy Stamper: 32:21

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 32:25

And then another one that would keep me in my integrity was like, what's your why? What is this in service to? So every episode, every guest consideration being like, is this somebody that should come on or not? Do I release this? Do I make this cut in the edits? Or do I leave it in? What is this in service to, like, really? And is this in service to what the real intention of this project is? Or is there something else that's sort of taking over and weaseling itself in? Staying connected to that question and doing the best I could to answer it honestly. Even though I don't know that we can always answer that honestly until later. But I would do my best to use that as a guide. And a way out of certain situations where, because there was definitely instances where it was like, there's what I should do. For example, you should release an episode every week always and for the rest of time. That's the thing that makes the podcast grow and X, Y, and Z. And I tried that. And I was like, this is, this sucks. It's, it's eroding the authenticity of the work. And it's running me haggard. And like, I don't want to do it. And does it mean I lose some traction and listenership? Probably. But at least I'm not miserable.

Tracy Stamper: 33:42

Exactly.

Candice Schutter: 33:43

yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 33:45

And you started talking about how other things can sometimes weasel their way in and being real clear on the motivation. And that leads us into the next question so beautifully about: what were those moments that, um, it just felt so good that you could have seen yourself getting weaseled into doing something that didn't really feel authentic? Were there points where the buzz or the excitement or the feedback you got from others or, you know, could have overridden what you felt like was your own internal navigation system? And when you felt like you were done? That tension.

Candice Schutter: 34:29

Yeah, it sort of makes me think, when you were saying like, it felt so good. And I'm thinking, I feel like it's taken me whatever this is. I'm about to enter my fifth decade. To figure out the difference between arousal and activation and then like what actually feels good. And I feel like arousal, it still grabs me and takes hold of me from time to time. But I wouldn't say that it feels good anymore. It feels like arousal. Whether I'm watching the news and seeing, you know, a lack of accountability again, and getting really worked up about it. And like, it's, it's arousing. And that's not a bad thing either. It's just arousing. It's like, okay, I'm going to, you know, feel my outrage. I'm going to vent to Chris. And we're going to go back and forth for 10 minutes and just get it out of us. Right? It's a cathartic release. It feels nice, but it's not the kind of feel good that I wanted to motivate this work. So there were moments when I would get fired up. And yeah, that could seduce me to take a certain action. And a couple of times it did in posts that maybe were a little bit, and again, I have no shame or guilt around this, because it's part of the human experience. But posts that I wrote while in the fervor of the feeling and just needing to say something. Like the post that I wrote, I think it was titled,'But It's Not a Cult.' Because I was so tired of people being like you're using the word cult. And like everyone's fixating on the word and they're missing the point of all the work. Because they're just like, is it or isn't it? Is it or isn't it? And I'm like, oh my god. And I was just so fed up at that point that I was just like I have to get something out there. So that felt good to express, but I wasn't in like a grounded place when I wrote that. I was like, I just need to address this, because it's eating at me. So, I feel like the fire would pull me into moments like that. But I try not to let it pull me into the releasing of episodes like that. I would take a lot more time with that, you know, so. Yeah, there were moments like that. But what felt good to me was creating space around the work so that whatever I made wasn't coming from a high-arousal state. Because again, I'm trying to think about what are all the things I'm critiquing in this series? And one of the things I'm critiquing in addition to capitalism and why I made the choices I made around the way that I pitched this work is high-arousal states and how they get confused with healing. And how they're not necessarily constructive. Just because it felt like a bunch of stuff happened and it was intense, it doesn't necessarily mean anything changed. And so I tried to approach the work that way and just let those seductive moments take me into conversations with like you or with Chris or with somebody else and had my, my spaces where I would sort of move that energy.

Tracy Stamper: 37:30

Nice.

Candice Schutter: 37:31

So that it didn't pull me into doing something I might regret. Or saying something. I might regret. Um, yeah, and I feel like I'm again at a point where I feel that seduction now of like, oh, you should keep, you know. And I'm like, so how do I not get seduced into the urgency that I need to come up with something?

Tracy Stamper: 37:54

Right.

Candice Schutter: 37:55

It's not easy, but it, it also is because this, I didn't turn this into a money machine and I can live without it. And so can other people. Like it did what it was meant to do I feel like. And now it's like, I don't know if it'll need to do anything else. Maybe this is it. We'll see.

Tracy Stamper: 38:11

It did what it was meant to do.

Candice Schutter: 38:14

So onward.

Tracy Stamper: 38:17

Onward. What was the most difficult podcast you've created and why?"

Candice Schutter: 38:36

That's a good one.

Tracy Stamper: 38:37

I know.

Candice Schutter: 38:39

Wow. It would definitely be a solo episode. Solo episodes are always more difficult for me. Probably. And just in case you're wondering why, because talking to people isn't, isn't hard. You know, and editing it down and all that, I really enjoy that part. But trying to capture what I want to say in a way that's clear, sometimes it's like, if it's like labor. And I think probably looking back, I'd have to look at a list of the podcast to really answer this for sure. But my guess is episodes 39 and 40. Because that was a real turning point for me. It was towards the beginning of the series. And that was when I was divorcing a community and ending a friendship and coming to terms with the fact that I was really steeped in dynamics that I thought I had separated from. That history was repeating itself in some ways. And that was, it was really hard for me to get that from the inside out and to, or to. And then also to figure out where, which was sort of connects to the episode that wasn't, the first draft of episode 74 that I recorded that I still have on my hard drive that I never released where I tell that story more in depth. The backstory of the'cult'ure series. That was hard for me to birth, but important. So I think it's, it's just when I'm coming to terms with my process in real time, that's the most difficult.

Tracy Stamper: 40:06

Yeah. This one touches back to your motivation and why you were drawn to this work in the first place. So, the question is:"I remember you saying something about things you discussed with people you interviewed that you ultimately decided not to include. What are the moral and practical guideposts that shape your decisions?"

Candice Schutter: 40:38

Well, I want to just disclose to everybody that this is one of only two questions out of this whole everything that you shared with me in advance,because you felt like it was so meaty that I might want a minute. And I appreciate that. Because I would have been a little bit deer in headlights that I not had a minute to think about it. Um, there's a kind of 3 answers to the question. It's always related to consent in some form. But consent is a tricky thing because we don't always have the capacity to offer informed consent. Because people don't know what they're getting into until they're like knee deep, you know. And so we say, like, well, I have consent. I'm just going to barrel forward. And it's like, no, consent is something we have to ask for again and again and again and again. And we also have to feel out the moments when consent is being withheld, but not obviously, or we can feel the hesitation. We can feel the tenderness. We can feel that it's just not right. So some of it's just intuitive. But the first piece is really around, it's really important to me to not exploit people to the best of my ability. And when folks are talking about trauma, there's a really thin line there. And so a lot of the choices i've made have just been around me just feeling like is this an exploitative choice? Is this a line that shouldn't be crossed because in this particular instance, it feels like it would kind of enter into that trauma porn area. Or, um, it puts this person at risk in a way that doesn't feel wise or kind. So I just have to constantly check in. Again, I feel like a broken record, but it always starts circles back to privilege for me. And the reason why it's been so important to me to not monetize this project in a way that backs me into any corners. Because I can continually can make the choice. There've been quite a few times where I've recorded something with somebody and people always have the option of backing out. And what folks may not know is that I send a preview link to every guest Patreon and main feed for every episode after it's edited. And if at any point, somebody said to me, I've had second thoughts. I don't want to. Can you pull out X, Y, and Z? That's why I say the podcast is in service to the guest. Because it's not about what I want other people to hear and like, this guest has that story. Like that's not, that's not how I want to approach the project because to me that feels exploitative. It's what story does this person want to share? And what do they want to be known publicly? And how can I be in service to that? So that's the first piece is just, I don't want to exploit anyone and I'm constantly on the lookout for that and maybe missing the mark in certain instances. So, you know, it's a learning experience. Um, secondly. One of the other guideposts for me has been the podcast, not necessarily the podcast in general, but this series, it's really been of great importance to me that it not be used to promote anyone's work because of the topics that we're discussing. Now, if somebody comes, people do work and they come on and they might reference their work and it might link to it. But it's not about. That it's not a, it's not a place to pitch and to recruit. And I've had to make decisions around those lines a few times and they, um, they get blurry, they get really blurry. Um, so that's been a moral guiding post for me because I feel like in order to be in the integrity of providing a space where we're critiquing that kind of behavior, I can't have it going on simultaneously. Right. So that, that to me is the guardrail. And then the third thing is kind of connected to the exploitation piece, but I feel like the answer to this question connects to another question that you sent me in advance. So I'm just going to kind of piggyback if that's okay.

Tracy Stamper: 44:41

Absolutely. Shall I ask the question officially?"Has there ever been anyone who wanted on the pod and you said, no, thank you."

Candice Schutter: 44:51

Again, yes, and no. I can't give you an exact instance of that particular interaction happening. But I've chosen to be really cautious and careful about not bringing guests on for the purposes of one, promoting them, like I just said. Or because it's the sensational choice. Because it's the popular choice. Because it's the choice that'll get me the most downloads. I've had to make decisions around that where I'm like, This is a person I know would say yes. This is a person who maybe even might be expecting me to ask them. Um, and what's the larger purpose of this? And does it fit within the integrity of that? And even though that would get me more views, I'm going to stay connected to the purpose of this. And I'm not going to invite that person on. So I can't say people are knocking on my door and I'm turning them away, but there's, the way that this all has happened pretty much every guest that's been on is it's arisen organically. First of all, I don't solicit stories from survivors. They come to me. It's like a rule that I have. Because of the not want wanting to exploit people piece, right? But in general like just people who want to come on and share, those relationships have evolved organically over time. And then it just sort of happens. So there's some relationships that sort of evolved in a way where that could have very easily happened, but I kind of steered the ship otherwise, like, no, it's not where I want to take things. When I first started interviewing people, I was like, first of all, I don't have a big platform, so a bunch of fancy people aren't going to want to come on anyway. But even if they did, that's not what this is about. I want people to be featured who don't normally get to talk. Who don't normally get to share their stories. Who don't usually have a platform. And again, I could do a lot better in that regard. But pulling from the small pool of people I already knew, I did the best that I could. And there's a lot of fancy people that I could invite on at this point, but what is that in service to? And so, I tend to not go there. So yeah, I don't know that those are to me moral and practical questions that I grapple with. And I also know that this, this project could own me very easily if I started to go down that path.

Tracy Stamper: 47:10

Whoa. Say more about that.

Candice Schutter: 47:16

Well, I mean, I think many of us learn this, like even in, you know, junior high, high school. It's like, if you fall in with the end crowd, there's a contract there. If you really want to cozy up to the people who have a lot of influence, you can, but at what cost? And this podcast might die after the'cult'ure series, it might carry on and become something more akin to that, where I actually build a platform and make money off of it. I don't know. But I knew for this particular series, I couldn't go there. I knew that much.

Tracy Stamper: 47:56

I would love to add that it has been so refreshing and healing and inspiring of hope to witness you do exactly what you just said. You wanted to do to reach those choice points in the project and to see you at the helm at a juncture where, okay, I could go this route, which is, this is where I've been aligned the entire time. This is about the story. This is, or, ooh, the shiny new thing came up. And if I talked to so and so, imagine the downloads. Like there have been those moments where it really could have been easy. We know, we know, we know power corrupts. We know this. And it's been really cool to see those choice points come up for you and to watch, be like, oh, that could be really exciting. But no, that's not the project. I'm over here. That has been amazing. So I just wanted to thank you for walking the talk. And I would imagine that walking the talk is something that is pretty important to survivors who have gotten some mixed messages or, been gaslit before. So I just wanted to reflect that back to you. That has been huge.

Candice Schutter: 49:28

So, yeah, I mean, I can't say that if the object had been shinier or more seductive, that I wouldn't have gone down that path again. I mean, I, I'm not going to lie and say that I have the strength to not go there. Because I don't know that that's necessarily true. I just know that I, it's a muscle that I'm developing. That I've been just striving to keep again, pressing pause. Pretty much every time I press pause, except for this time this time I'm just, it's just time. But pretty much every time I press pause on the main feed, I'm at a choice point. And so that became my rule from the beginning when I'm at a choice point. If I barrel forward, I'm going to do a thing I regret. And so I'm going to stop and regroup and then come back when I feel rooted again in like, why I'm really doing this. Um, so I've been able to do that because I don't have the audience, the reach, the influencer status, all of that. Um, not to say that people couldn't try on that model if they had that. They sure could, and I'd like to say that I would. But I can't say for sure that I would.

Tracy Stamper: 50:41

That makes sense.

Candice Schutter: 50:42

I don't know for sure, cause I don't know. I'm not there. So I'm glad it's a little podunk podcast with, you know. What are, I think I met like 45,000 downloads now, which in the world of podcasting is, you know, okay. But it's not, it's not enough to pull me away, out of my anchor and towards all those shiny new things. So, yeah. Thank you for that. And also we'll see what happens.

Tracy Stamper: 51:08

Stay tuned. Dot, dot, dot. Something that I noticed for myself during this project, and I'm really curious if you had a similar learning curve when it comes to, I'm going to call it detoxing from sensationalism. For me, what I did not realize at the time was how much of an adrenaline junkie I had become. What became clear to me during the project was how seduced I had become by the high-arousal. How my system needed those hits. Um, and I noticed for myself that when I first got out, I was no longer in the environment that was steeped in high-arousal states. And that fed me. It wasn't healthy, but now I see that it hooked me in. So I noticed that I had to go through high-arousal detox for myself where I would notice myself yearning to feel that rush. And once I started to see more clearly how that was just part of the Org signature, I started having to find ways to like very consciously step away from that. And almost reparent my nervous system. Is that something that you experienced yourself? Could you feel that draw to the frenetic and a desire to step back?

Candice Schutter: 53:01

Um, yes and no. I mean, I think it's different because I had been away for so long. So I felt it in the sense that I think any human feels it. In the way that like we, I think, sometimes reach for outside dramas as a distraction from our own internal drama. So yeah, in that sense, and I'll always experience that because that's just part of being human. And, there's something that can also be incredibly cathartic about that and helpful. You know, it's like watching, certain TV shows and stories can actually help us process things. So there's something really healthy about it in a certain way. So I don't want to demonize it entirely. Um, but what I hear you speaking to is something more specific, I think, to new age wellness culture and the, um, the state change that happens in those spaces. And it happens consistently if you spend a lot of time in those spaces. And let's face it, when we were in the Org, we spent almost all of our time in those spaces. So this altered state sensation of like. And, and I even feel it, you know, again, when I go to an event in Sedona and people want to connect with me in this altered state place. And they're sort of eye gazing. And they have their hand on their heart. And they're like, I can feel them, like, sort of wanting to pull me into this. It's a state change. I can't describe it any other way. It's just like I'm here and then there's the state change. And I get that that can be really seductive. That's no longer seductive to me.

Tracy Stamper: 54:32

Wow.

Candice Schutter: 54:33

And for a while I felt repelled by it. Now I don't feel repelled so much as just like, that's weird. Like for me, it's actually almost identical to watching somebody... when, I remember when I was a kid, you know, if you've been listening for a while, y'all know that I grew up in like a largely atheist home. But on the weekends, I would go sleepovers with my friends and I would go to church with them. And I remember going to church with my friend, Stephanie's parents. And they went to, um, I don't even know what it was. Maybe it was Baptist. It could have been Pentecostal. I'm not sure. But I know they did the like hand waving. And I remember sitting in the pew and watching my best friend's mom and just being like, huh. That's kind of how I feel now when I encounter somebody who's in a new age altered state is I'm just like, interesting. So for me, that isn't something that I miss. But there was a period of time where I did, and I would seek it out in other ways. I would chant in the mornings. I would try to get myself into an altered place, because I thought it did something. And I'm not here to tell you it does or it doesn't. But for me, it no longer does anything for me. It just doesn't appeal to me. So that sense of it, I didn't get pulled in. The drama of like, yeah, I mean, on occasion, I get pulled into that. But it sort of feels like the same thing that happens if I like, I've, I rarely drink nowadays and like when I do, I'll get like the slightest buzz, and I stop drinking. Because my body doesn't like it. I'll just say that. Like the next day, it's not a good thing. But if I go beyond that point, that buzz isn't as appealing to me anymore. It's like that numbness, that altering of reality. Like it just doesn't do anything for me the way that it used to. So I feel the same thing about even dramatic scuffles and brawling and tension. Like that's like, yeah, I get the appeal of that, just like I get the appeal of drinking a bottle of wine. Been there, done that. No thanks. I'll dabble. I'll have a drink. I'll make some snide comments. I'll be snarky as hell. But I'm not going to go all the way in to that. Because that state doesn't really serve me long term. And it might feel kind of good, but I'm not as pulled in. But so I guess all of that to say, I think I'm in a different place, because so much time passed before I did this series. Where I wasn't, I wasn't yearning for that and missing it because I had been away from it long enough.

Tracy Stamper: 57:19

Okay.

Candice Schutter: 57:20

But I do remember getting messages from people in this process. I remember a couple posts on ATO about it, people being like, I miss being in those classes and being in that sort of altered place with all the people and like that high-arousal experience. I miss that. Does anyone else miss that? And I think that's a totally natural thing to feel.

Tracy Stamper: 57:39

Absolutely.

Candice Schutter: 57:40

Really do. And just because I don't miss it now doesn't mean I didn't at one point in time.

Tracy Stamper: 57:45

Mm hmm.

Candice Schutter: 57:45

So just to normalize if, if some of you out there feel that and yearn for that, I'm not making it wrong. Again, it's like, we were just having a conversation with somebody recently saying like, I haven't let go of all the magic in life. Like I still do the magical thinking thing. I just know that I'm doing it.

Tracy Stamper: 58:03

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 58:04

So for me, it's the same thing with an altered state. Like, okay, if I'm going to go get in an altered state, I'm just going to knowingly say this is an altered state. To me, it's like, just own it for what it is. I want to do this high-arousal thing, because it's fucking fun. Or because I think you know it does give me a little bit of meaning and something to ponder. Like that's great I got respect for that. But early on, it was like all these things were literalized.

Tracy Stamper: 58:27

Yeah. Okay. I don't even know if this next question is fair. And I'm going to ask it anyway. I am really curious if you have any predictions for where the organization that we came out of might end up. Having studied and chatted with people who have been part of organizations who have had to reckon with cultic dynamics. And I don't know if you're going to be able to step back objectively enough to be able to make a prediction. Like, this is what we could imagine might happen with an organization of this size, of this structure, at this point in the reckoning of cultic dynamics. Do you have any guesses? Or do you not even want to go there?

Candice Schutter: 59:19

Well, one, I don't think it's possible for me to be entirely objective because of how close I was to it at one time. But I mean, my knee jerk response is what's going to happen is the same thing that's always happened. That's been my point all along. You know, even when folks who I completely get where they were coming from had, like, the best of intentions and we're trying to, like, save it from the inside. It's like, because of the way the structure is set up and the way the leadership model, those lines have been drawn, and how long they've been there and how deeply entrenched they are. I don't see it changing. I think it's going to continue to do what it's doing now. I don't think this podcast is going to, like, it'll leave a lasting mark potentially on some particular individuals. But not the organization as a whole. I'm not under any delusions that, that this is, has transformed the Org in any way. I never thought it would, and I don't think it will. And that, I'm okay with that, because I didn't set out to do that. Neither did you. That wasn't our intention. That's not the purpose of it. Even though there's people who really want to put that on us in both the positive and negative way of like, you're trying to take it down or keep going because you're taking it down. It's like, that's not the point. And I know from studying the dynamics enough that there will always be loyalists. There will always be people who double down. There will always be people who aren't loyalists but will continue to feed the bottom line because we live in a capitalist culture where we, myself included. I order shit from Amazon. Right? Like I order shit from Amazon. I'm saying all this stuff and I order shit from Amazon, fully understanding Jeff Bezos is sitting on his throne, getting richer and richer and richer, right? There's a million things, I could go on for an hour about all the things that I do knowingly that support systems that I don't agree with. So I'm not on any high horse here. And then there are certain things where I pull back and I say, I'm not going to do that. And like, we have to pick and choose our battles. Because if we opted out of t all, we would have to just, I don't know, go live in Siberia. Even there though, I think, you know, isn't Putin in charge of Siberia? That wouldn't be good either.

Tracy Stamper: 1:01:31

That would not be good. And it's cold. It's very cold. Very cold.

Candice Schutter: 1:01:36

So, yeah, I think it's this, it's going to keep doing what it's doing. The systems are going to keep doing what they're doing. And the changes that we're hoping for, we probably won't see in our lifetime in a really significant way. Assuming that humans, we don't take ourselves out, you know. It's a big assumption. But assuming that we are able to sustain the human race and not go extinct based on our current trajectory, I think that these things can change, but that it's going to take a slow and steady progress. And the next generations are going to be the ones that do it. You know, they're like, yeah, duh. Will you just give us control now, please. Right.

Tracy Stamper: 1:02:16

What took so damn long to come to that conclusion.

Candice Schutter: 1:02:19

So, um. But going back to the Org, I think it's going to continue. I think that we did have an impact, but that it's going to continue. And I really very strongly believe that, and I don't know, but my guess is Marissa is not going to surrender authority or control over any of it at any time. She's not going to retire and give it over to somebody else. I really don't believe that. If so, she would still be the one pulling the strings behind the scenes. I don't think she has the ego strength, and here I'm using the word ego as it's intended, not in its popularized New Age vernacular. But I don't think she has the ego strength to do such a thing, to surrender the throne. So I really think that the Org's probably just going to slowly and steadily die, like a lot of cults and organizations do, where there's not a real sense of true collaborative leadership. You know, I think it'll just. And then there'll be people who will carry on doing it beyond that point, because there will always be loyalists who. And there are people, you know, even in the conversations that I have with people who are still involved, there are people who still very adamantly believe that the Org is an energy.

Tracy Stamper: 1:03:38

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:03:39

And that it is its own magic. And that it has nothing to do with Marissa or Raul or Seth. And that it's purposeful. And that it needs to be here And there will always be people who have faith in that dogma. And they're going to keep it going. And again totally their prerogative to do. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm just saying I think it'll just keep going. It just maybe will eventually wither and die in a mainstream. Like it's, it's hope for the mainstream, I think it's, is behind it. Even before this podcast, I think that was true.

Tracy Stamper: 1:04:13

I would agree. I've never thought about that.

Candice Schutter: 1:04:15

It's not evolving and growing in a way that will keep it mainstream palatable. It never was mainstream palatable in a lot of ways. But it's become more and more and more irrelevant in terms of where the mainstream is going with things. And, and it's, it's not been willing to grapple with a lot of the questions that need to be grappled with. And so I think that season is long gone. But I think the work will always continue on some level. Because there will always be people who believe in it. It's like any dogma that's just, you know.

Tracy Stamper: 1:04:45

The die-hard dogmatists.

Candice Schutter: 1:04:48

Yeah. But of course I have no idea. But that's my, I don't know, if I had a crystal ball what I think it would say.

Tracy Stamper: 1:04:55

If you had tea leaves that you could read.

Candice Schutter: 1:04:58

Well, wait, let me, let me channel the answer. There's the Org, but like, none of this is about the Org. It's so much bigger than that. And that's what I want people to wake up to. Because otherwise they're just going to make a lateral move to that organization, and this org, they're going to do the same shit. It's just going to be a little less toxic.

Tracy Stamper: 1:05:17

Maybe.

Candice Schutter: 1:05:18

Maybe. Well, if they know what to look for in terms. And that's what I see a lot of people being like, Oh, well, the leader isn't a narcissist, so dot, dot, dot, everything must be okay. It's like, well, there's a lot more to it than that.

Tracy Stamper: 1:05:33

I would love to hear you speak to you're stepping into a leadership role around a project that was navigating harm done by folks in leadership. Was that a scary place for you at all? And can you speak to the whole leadership question and your role in that?

Candice Schutter: 1:06:02

Yeah, I feel like that's like top 3 hardest things about the project. Because I didn't intend to lead anything.

Tracy Stamper: 1:06:12

Right.

Candice Schutter: 1:06:12

And, and then, let alone while doing a critiquing of leadership, um.

Tracy Stamper: 1:06:18

Surprise.

Candice Schutter: 1:06:20

So, but at the same time, I've always been, you know, and I don't know what to attribute it to, but I've always been the kind of person who ends up in a leadership position. Not by seeking it out. It's just something that tends to happen because it, may be of my Leo-ness. I don't know if it's astrology. I don't know what the hell it is, but it's just something that ends up happening. And it's why I have mixed feelings about it. Because I feel comfortable in a leadership role, but I also feel immensely uncomfortable because of the experiences I've had being led. And also some of the, the harm that I no doubt participated in, in the past as a leader. And when I say harm, you know, I can't think of anything like capital H harm, but like plenty of, you know, microaggressive harms and carrying forth models that, you know, I now look back on and wince. And the hierarchy of leadership isn't something I buy into. So when I'm even called a leader or pointed out in that way, it feels like I have this immediate part of me that's like, if somebody is in some way looking to meet a lead or positioning me as a leader, I'm like, doing my best to read, like, what do they think that means?

Tracy Stamper: 1:07:39

Oh, wow. Okay.

Candice Schutter: 1:07:41

Do they just want somebody to sort of be the banks of the river? Or they want somebody to just orchestrate and organize the flow of things? Or are they looking for somebody to surrender their authority to? Are they looking for somebody who has answers that they don't have? Are they like, what's happening here? And so, that's been a part of my process is like, how do I make sure that, like, I'm okay leading as long as those things aren't happening. As long as me being a leader isn't in some way encroaching on somebody's agency or sense of personal authority. Or as long as they hopefully feel okay challenging me and telling me that they think differently than me. Like all of those things. But I have purposefully not put myself in that position. Like I could have, I mean, obviously the thought, you talk about the seductions. It's like, Oh, I could lead After The Org coaching groups and charge people money to show up. I could be the person with the answers around deprogramming and. And it's like, No, I can't. I can't. I mean, I practically speaking could. But like, I can't because it's antithetical to the work. We, Tracy and I have talked about this so much time. Like this choice is antithetical to the work and the whole purpose of it. So we're not going to make this choice. It's not that it's a bad choice. In a different context, this would be the choice to make. But in this context, it's antithetical. And that's what I feel like in terms of stepping into a leadership role with this project, specifically After The Org people who, in some ways, some folks probably are looking for somebody to step forward. I mean, we saw this even when things really started to go sideways and the Org COO was still a part of the Org. And so many people were like, she's going to save it! She's going to be the one who. And it's like, but this is part of the problem, is like, we want to find the person who's going to save it. Or we want to find the person who's going to tear it down. But we're not willing to step our own asses up and do the work. And I feel like, I'm sorry, I'm getting fired up because I feel like I'm at this point now where people are like, keep going, keep holding the Org accountable! And I'm like, you know what? You do it. And you and you and you and you and you and you and you and you. It's like, who's gonna save it? Or who's gonna save us from the savior, right?

Tracy Stamper: 1:10:04

Right.

Candice Schutter: 1:10:05

It's like this strong man complex that we have, strong woman, whatever it is. And so I guess why does this connect to the leadership role thing? Because I think that's part of the problem, is the way that we frame leadership. And the way that we surrender our own agency to leaders and expect them to tell us what to do, where to go, to say the hard things, to be the brave one while we sit back and cheer them on. And I don't know that that's going to get us out of any of these messes. You know, and I get that we need to have people who inspire us and set an example. But then what?, becomes my question. Then what? Do we just sit back and applaud them and say, here, I'll keep sending you money while I stay a silent sponsor of your work. And I say this with a big caveat, which is that there are some people who, due to their life and circumstances, the, the cost is too high for them to be the one stepping forward. But those of us who have the privilege and the bandwidth and the color skin and the, you know, the finances and all the things that actually have the ability to step forward without losing everything. Why aren't we stepping forward more? And those are the questions I'm asking myself. And I'm saying this not to pick on anybody because I'm just, you know, in my late forties, I'm catching on to all of this. I've been the one hiding behind the scenes my whole life watching other people, and like, isn't that inspiring. But what is it inspiring? If it's not inspiring us to act ourselves? What is, what is it? You know, I don't know. Totally like ranting here, but this is where I'm at.

Tracy Stamper: 1:11:45

Thank you. And that really reminds me of the tired goose episode that you and I did where we were exhausted, and, um, we talked about this in, in that episode where when we see the v-formation of the goose, there is going to be that lead goose who is taking on the headwind, is working really fucking hard to fly the friendly skies with their little V formation. That goose is going to get tired. That goose is going to need to fall back into the back of the V. And other geese are going to need to come in to that formation where they can take on the headwinds. Yes. So I love that illustration of a rotating leadership and all of us taking our turns at like, this is what I have to offer. I'm going to go up to the front of that V formation. Do you have any, um, grand visions for what you hope might happen as there's room at the head of that V for folks to step in. And I don't exactly want to say make this their own. You know what I'm saying. I'm not saying it very well.

Candice Schutter: 1:12:56

Yeah, no, you are. I think it's, for me, where the challenge is, is I don't want this to become another movement where we have to fall in line behind each other and take turns and. Because I feel like, not to say that that's not worthwhile, if somebody wants to do that. It's just that's not what I set out to create. I understand the metaphor that you're using because that's what it felt like for us for a long time. I'm to a point now where I'm like, and this speaks to the thing I was saying the last time, if folks think this is about a single movement, they didn't fully hear what I'm saying. And again, that's not wrong if they think it's about that movement and they want to focus on that, great. But like my purpose isn't that we carry forward this movement. Because I feel like what I'm really moving toward is like, what if we didn't have to line up in any formation to get to one place that we've all agreed we want to go? What if we could, and I don't want to get all like utopian, so I'm having a hard time even with this framing there, the place that I'm going. Because I don't believe there's some like utopian goal that we're going to, I don't know, reach. But my, my purpose is more like just stand in your own sense of self and truth when you need to and fuck the formation. Like not in the, not that the formation doesn't matter. There are times when we need to be in formation to get shit done. But like, understand that that's not the thing that's going to change the world is that we have enough of the right formations. That's what keeps dividing us. Because this formation doesn't agree with that formation. And this religion doesn't agree with that religion. And this country doesn't agree with, this party. It's like those formations are part of what I feel like is the problem. And that leadership actually looks like something that makes us more free, and less lined up. And I don't even know what I'm saying exactly, because it's all so new to me. I don't even have a vision to point at. I just know there's something about deconstructing the formations that's really. Like if you want to carry forward this specific work, then keep deconstructing the formations. And ask yourself, why do I feel like I need someone to follow? Why is that so important? Why do I need a savior? Why do I need somebody who can point the way to me? And what would it look like to align with people? It doesn't mean that you're, we're all lone wolves. I'm not pushing for hyper individualism. It's actually more of a collective activism where each person has a say and a voice. It's more communal, because we don't have to agree all the time. It's just like, if you were to ask me, like, how are you going to carry forward this work? It's like, well, I'm just going to keep telling the truth in whatever system I'm in. And I'm going to do my best to just be honest now and not get caught up in what I'm supposed to be doing there. And, um, notice when these dynamics show up in any place that I'm in and challenge them. Like, I just had a conversation that made me have to carry this forward in like a tangible way, right? So I had an opportunity to have an uncomfortable conversation. And I didn't make her wrong. But I was just like, I have to say respectfully, I totally disagree with what you just said about intention. And that actually we can have a really great intention and have a negative outcome. And, you know, I don't think it works as plain and simple as you're describing it. And I think there's a lot of complexity that's lost here. And I had to say all the things that I've been saying this series in an uncomfortable one on one interaction.

Tracy Stamper: 1:16:49

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:16:52

I wasn't leading a movement. I was just having a conversation and being real where I would have normally been polite. And, you know, I would have just avoided the topic. But I just said the things that I wanted to say. And she also surprised me. And this is, this woman whose beliefs I challenged, in a very kind and honest way, not saying you're wrong, but I disagree. She ends up texting me the next day telling me how refreshing it was to have that conversation. Right? So again, I'm taking this in a totally different place, but I think it's important because carrying this forward isn't about this.

Tracy Stamper: 1:17:32

Yes.

Candice Schutter: 1:17:34

It has nothing to do with The Deeper Pulse and the'cult'ure series and Candice's work. Like it's like, fuck that. That's like a, an idea that was interesting and that served us for a time. But it's not meant to be concretized. That is what becomes dogmatic. And that's the like, okay, now who's going to take up the head of this movement that is The Deeper Pulse of the'cult'ure series? It's like, let's not hold it that way. Like what is the point of the series? And it's to step outside of that. That's I guess the point that I'm making. And to do this awkward work in real time in our everyday lives. That's it. You know? Like, that's my hope for it, is that it helps you have different experiences in your relationships and your group affiliations moving forward. And that slowly and steadily that moves the needle away from this culty BS. I think that's the best we can hope for. I think anything else becomes just another iteration of cult dynamics.

Tracy Stamper: 1:18:30

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:18:32

And that's the thing that I think gets missed and why things get concretized into dogma is that we. And maybe, maybe part of the reason I see things the way I do is because my degree is in psychology. But also I have a dual major in human development. And like developmentally, I feel like we, we don't let things mature and die. So yeah, ATO had its phase where it was in its infancy and we needed to be really tender with it. And we needed to go on every single day and make sure that everything. Right? And then it started to grow up and evolve and it became older and, and it went beyond the, even the five stages that get talked about in the Org. It did more than just stand. It's moving into a state of maturity. And there's a point at which people exit. And this is the problem with capitalistic culture and why it's so connected to cult dynamics is because we can't afford for people to exit. They need to stay loyal to the brand forever because that's how we make our money. So I feel like when you say that, like the moment we put that episode out, that was where we were in the process. And now it's like, well, ATO feels different to me.

Tracy Stamper: 1:19:37

It does.

Candice Schutter: 1:19:39

It's like in a different stage of its maturity. It doesn't need the tending it needed at the time it needed it then. You know what I mean? So can we just let it be what it is? And maybe at some point it'll just wither and die. And that's okay, too. It's not a failure to move on. It's just what's next, you know?

Tracy Stamper: 1:19:57

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:19:58

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:19:59

Beautiful. And that's been a huge growth and learning process for me was, what is my relationship to ATO and what is my caretaking? Where's that coming through? Where am I spinning my own wheels?

Candice Schutter: 1:20:16

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:20:16

How am I replicating here what I did over there?

Candice Schutter: 1:20:20

Exactly. Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:20:33

So you and I have talked about how this series has been like a boot camp for people pleasers. I feel like I've been through an intensive personal growth curriculum, but one that wasn't phony or made up in the first place. Can you speak to the spiritual development of going through the process of sharing your story openly and communing with other folks who are looking for that same liberation. Can you speak to the boot camp aspect of the work?

Candice Schutter: 1:21:13

Yeah, and I just had kind of an aha while you were framing that question. When you sort of said, tongue in cheek, like the spiritual, whatever you said, liberation. And then you sort of asked the question as I was like, oh. One of the reasons I think people use the framing of spiritual, like, this is a spiritual journey, is because they don't understand psychology. So they spiritualize it. They're like, this thing that happened, this transformation. And it's like, well, actually, if you understand conditioning, indoctrination, human psychology, the way that trauma imprints work, what it actually means to create new neural pathways in the brain, and how the frontal lobe gets hijacked by the reptilian brain when certain things come up. If you understand all that, you don't need to be like, it was a spiritual journey. Because you're like, oh, this is actually the psychology of change and how it happens, the slow burn over time. So thank you for your mockery there for a second, you know, cause I know you sort of meant it and you were also saying it tongue in cheek.

Tracy Stamper: 1:22:17

Right.

Candice Schutter: 1:22:18

I think, this is kind of a new awareness for me of being like, when I am framing things in terms of the spiritual and I'm making meaning out of something. Cause to me, spirituality is like making meaning out of the mystery. Right? And sometimes we can and sometimes we can't. And so, I'm not saying we need to rationalize everything and bring it all down. But I am saying like, well, what if we really just said, I don't really understand how this works, so I'm calling it spiritual. I'm calling the mystery for what it is. There's something that's happening here. Maybe it's mystical. Maybe it's magical. Maybe it's just psychology that I don't yet comprehend.

Tracy Stamper: 1:22:56

Right.

Candice Schutter: 1:22:57

And in this instance, the reason I bring that in is I feel like it's the latter. People pleasing bootcamp, like how did we do this? And it's like, well, if you're conditioned by your experience and your culture and your family of origin and all the things to act as a people pleaser. And then you enter into a domain where in order to do the very thing you're setting out to do, you have to consistently and continually put either the truth or the centering of stories and narratives before the fact of what's going to make people happy. If you do that enough times. And you sit through the tremor. And you take breaks when you need it. And you commune with other people who are going through it too. And you, if you go through that process, then you're going to have an outcome like the one that you and I have had. There's nothing mystical going on. It's just the tangible work of change, of transformation, not just personally, but socially. And understanding that the reason why in the beginning of the series, I use the word psychosocial all the time is because I was trying to break myself free from the idea that I was this separate psychological being who was on her own journey.

Tracy Stamper: 1:24:11

Okay.

Candice Schutter: 1:24:13

It's like, no, I'm not. There is no such thing as a me journey, in the sense that everything is psychosocial. Everything is in the context of a culture and a community and an environment and an indoctrinating ideology and an epigenetic history. It's all in the context of social. There's no such thing as me just me ing. It's all in context.

Tracy Stamper: 1:24:36

Right.

Candice Schutter: 1:24:37

So learning how to not be a people pleaser isn't something you can go do in a boot camp for seven days with a bunch of people isolated in a retreat center and then you come home and suddenly you're able to. Like, it doesn't work that way because of human psychology and the fact that we're psychosocial creatures and that everything that happens exists in systems. And I feel like this is at the crux of the point of this series is really understanding the only way out of all of this is to really just admit that we can't do any of it without engaging with these systems. And literally challenging them and facing the blowback when we do. Which is uncomfortable. And that's the thing we got more comfortable with, was the discomfort, right? It was like, okay, we're going to do this thing and there's going to be people who don't like it. Or we're going to do another thing, there's going to be people who don't like it. Oh, now people are saying they don't like it. Oh, wow, somebody's written a song about how they don't like it. This is, this is the process. But then you just walk through that fire, and it does get easier. It's not easy yet, but it gets easier.

Tracy Stamper: 1:25:37

Right. Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:25:40

So I don't know if I answered your question. But I feel like the bootcamp part, I love the way that you framed it that way, because that's the tongue in cheek part. Oh, we're going to go over here and do this thing, this healing thing, outside the bounds of the systems that created the very dynamic that we're seeking to overcome. I don't think it really works that way, anymore. I used to, Oh God, I used to, I used to sell that shit.

Tracy Stamper: 1:26:06

And if it did work that way, having gone off and, you know, spent a month in the mountains retreating? How do we then bring our changed selves into the same cultural dynamics that are going to respond to us the same way we did before we went off to the mountain?

Candice Schutter: 1:26:22

Exactly.

Tracy Stamper: 1:26:23

Okay. Interesting.

Candice Schutter: 1:26:25

And it's not to say retreats are just bad all around. Of course, there's some benefit to that. We're not speaking black and white here. There is some benefit there, but it is not the solution to the problem. Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:26:36

Hear here. So, really random, as I was thinking of questions to ask you, do you remember the song, I think it was from the 90s, Things That Make You Go Hmm?

Candice Schutter: 1:26:48

Oh, yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:26:49

Things That Make You Go Hmm?

Candice Schutter: 1:26:50

I can.

Tracy Stamper: 1:26:52

Give me your top three from the series.

Candice Schutter: 1:26:56

Things that make you go, hmm, from the series?

Tracy Stamper: 1:26:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:27:01

I don't know if this is going to be like, if I had sat and thought about it, the top three from the series, but I'm just going to tell you the top three top of mind things that come up. Things that make me go, hmm, right now. Because there've probably been thousands throughout the series. The thing I'm going, hmm, about the most right now is the way in which so much of our lives have become reality TV. And what I mean by that is like, I scroll social media and I'm like, wow, everyone has their own reality TV show.

Tracy Stamper: 1:27:34

Oh.

Candice Schutter: 1:27:35

Right. It's like we're performing our lives in front of a camera. And even if it's real, it's in front of a camera. And so I've really been asking myself, like, how does one carry on showing up without becoming our own reality TV show star? This is something that I'm really going, hmmm. Isn't that interesting? I just find it so fascinating. And connected to it, adjacently, what makes me go, Hmm, is how many people who are speaking out around social justice issues and cult dynamics and all these things, these people that I follow on Instagram. My Instagram feed is really specifically kind of geared in that direction. And like how many of them, it's like the show of activism.

Tracy Stamper: 1:28:21

Okay.

Candice Schutter: 1:28:21

You know, it's not to say they aren't saying really great things. But it's like, they have to show up with a video every day. That's their show. And it's, the whole thing is just so perplexing to me. And I don't, I'm not trying to fault anyone. I just find it all very curious and weird. It's just a really weird time that we're in. And then I wonder like, what impact is it having, really? That's the thing I'm most curious about. You know, that's what my graduate degree is in social impact. Like, what's the point of what we're doing? What is this in service to? What's the real fucking point of this? Is it actually lending itself to the aim that we say we're seeking? And I think that in some instances, yes, when I see those folks performing their activism. And in some instances, not really. I feel like it's just a little hamster wheel they're running on. It's not really going anywhere. Um, but it's such a tricky line to walk because raising awareness is a big part of activism. But then where does the action meet the ground? Especially when you've got, you know, 20, 000 clicks of people being like, yeah, what you said. Okay, now I'm going to go do nothing about it. Right. It's like, well, I'm glad you agree, but like.

Tracy Stamper: 1:29:34

Where does that get us?

Candice Schutter: 1:29:35

Yeah. So what, I guess the thing that's making me go hmm is how do we turn activism into action? Really? You know, and I don't know. And I know there's a bunch of folks out there who are way ahead, way, way, way, way ahead of me on this curve that I want to learn from, and I feel like that's the next place that I'm going. That's what I'm really interested in and that's what's making me go, hmm, right now. Because I feel if I stayed with this, I would just be another talking head that's not really impacting things on the ground. You know what I mean?

Tracy Stamper: 1:30:05

I do.

Candice Schutter: 1:30:06

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:30:07

I do. And that segued beautifully into, have you figured out your life purpose yet? No, but seriously, like, are there any more pieces that have fallen into place? Any little curiosities that, you know will inform where you go from here?

Candice Schutter: 1:30:24

Not really, but I'm entering into that like liminal space. I can feel myself entering into that sort of pregnant pause space where I don't know the answer on the other side of it. To just be like, I'm just going to let go, because I know it's going to show up. And there's little inklings of things that are starting to come in a little bit that I'm not ready to speak to in terms of next steps. But actually, just this morning, I woke up with more of a sense of, and there's a little bit of grief too, of Oh, I think I need to like, step way the hell back for a little while. That feels like what's next for me. And that's, um, I don't want to say it's scary. It doesn't scare me. But it's, it does bring a sense of sorrow to the forefront because I've devoted myself to this for three years. So it's a little bit like oh. And not to say I won't come back, because I don't know. But I just know I need to pause and when I need to step back and re evaluate. So I'm not even sure what, how I want to navigate that specifically with the Patreon community. Because people are paying for the content, I need to really think about how I want to navigate the pause. I am probably going to put some sort of message out just letting people know that it's going to be a little less structured than it's been. And, uh, just trust people to take care of themselves. Like, if they want to step out, if they want to stick around. Understanding though, that there is one project that is connected to this, that is part of what the break is about, which is putting a lot of this into a book form. And that financial contributions monthly would be going toward that project, would be going toward the process of getting a book edited and formatted and put together. And the time and space and energy it takes to do that, which is daunting. More daunting than creating podcasts, to be honest, that is really the next place I need to go and just trust that it's okay for me to take space to do that.

Tracy Stamper: 1:32:27

Yeah."Would you do it all again?"

Candice Schutter: 1:32:32

Yes.

Tracy Stamper: 1:32:33

There you go.

Candice Schutter: 1:32:34

Without a doubt.

Tracy Stamper: 1:32:38

What new facet or unexpected part of yourself, did you meet and greet who you want to take with you into whatever that next venture is?

Candice Schutter: 1:32:52

I think it's just the part of myself that's less self conscious overall. But not just in the sense of self conscious, like worried about what people think, but in the sense of self centering.

Tracy Stamper: 1:33:06

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:33:07

Like being so steeped in personal growth and personal development, I just became so like, when we were talking about, and I think it was a good girl episode. We were talking about taking it personally. It's like, how I see that differently now, even from when we recorded the four allies episode of just being like. Taking it personally. Why is that always the question? Like, what does this have to do with me? Does it have to do with me? Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me? So that sort of myopia of like being sort of in my self world and not understanding that that's sort of. I know there was a period of time where I needed to be there to reclaim myself. But now it's like, there's so much bigger questions to ponder than how do I feel about this? Or what is the impact on me? Or what personal development thing do I need to do to become the next level of the person I want to become? It's like, how can I help that person over there? Or this community? Or what's the thing that needs to be said in this room? And just stepping outside of myself is the part of myself that, I actually want to leave the part of myself that is so self focused and so self conscious behind and just carry forward and stop obsessing about self so much.

Tracy Stamper: 1:34:19

Right there. Would you say that that speaks to wellness culture?

Candice Schutter: 1:34:25

And in some, I mean, not in every instance, but in a lot of ways, yes. And again, the doorway in is always, the good stuff's right at the threshold, the things we absolutely need. So there's nothing wrong with that, for those of us who are self sacrificing and who didn't have a sense of self and didn't ever focus on ourselves and all that, I'm not making that wrong. There is a time and a place to reclaim that. But then what? Becomes the question. But then what? What, what's the point in reclaiming it? For what? To what end? What will you do with it once you've reclaimed it?

Tracy Stamper: 1:35:04

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:35:06

You know, like that's kind of a place where I'm at.

Tracy Stamper: 1:35:19

So, my last question for today, because I do reserve the right to ask questions whenever I so please.

Candice Schutter: 1:35:27

You may.

Tracy Stamper: 1:35:28

Thank you. Um, let's see how to word this. Being involved in this project has restored my faith in my own ability to show up in a meaningful way, to add value, to feel valued, and to work in concert with someone I care about. That was something that through my experience and, you know, all the things that the project has been about, that is something that really took a hit, for me, my, my faith in my own abilities to show up and to be of value and to be seen and appreciated. When you think about the project and dig deep about, wow, I am astonished that I am here after this project. Is there a parallel sensation that you have? Is there something from this experience that you want to wrap up in a shiny bow and be like, I did it. I got it. Cause that's what it was for me.

Candice Schutter: 1:36:54

All I want to do right now is hold you up and celebrate that, that you had that experience. That's literally the only thing that comes to mind. Like it's fucking beautiful. And I want to make room for you to celebrate that and for people to witness that. That's it.

Tracy Stamper: 1:37:15

It's pretty fucking cool.

Candice Schutter: 1:37:17

Yeah. That you feel that way. I mean, you said it so beautifully, I won't even try to parrot back what you said, just, I feel honored to have been a part of you having that experience. That is a deep and abiding joy that I'll carry. And that I hope that that stays with you. I hope that it, it got in deep, you know. Deep, deep, deep.

Tracy Stamper: 1:37:46

I'm feeling it all the way in my toes.

Candice Schutter: 1:37:48

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:37:49

It's deep in there.

Candice Schutter: 1:37:51

Yeah. Do you want to say anything else about that?

Tracy Stamper: 1:37:56

Nope.

Candice Schutter: 1:37:58

I mean, you said it beautifully. I just am wanting to make room for you here at the end of this. Because, again, it's that thing of like centering me sort of misses the point of the whole thing. That this was a collaborative experience that we all had. And that we could sit down with you and have a Q A, and we could sit down with Monica and have a Q A. We could sit down with any given listener out there listening right now and have a Q A. And like, it would be just as rich and important.

Tracy Stamper: 1:38:26

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:38:27

So anyway, just to say the experience that you had matters just as much, if not more to me, than the experience that I had.

Tracy Stamper: 1:38:38

What a beautiful response. Thank you.

Candice Schutter: 1:38:41

It's true. Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:38:44

I know.

Candice Schutter: 1:38:46

And that's a real gift that you just gave to me sharing that with me. And to see you sit here, and to say what you just said is the outcome, it's like, worth every inch of the energy for you to have that turn around, you to come back to yourself and to see your value.

Tracy Stamper: 1:39:03

Yeah.

Candice Schutter: 1:39:04

You know? Yeah. Cuz I've seen it all along.

Tracy Stamper: 1:39:11

This is some powerful work you stepped into, my dear. For us and for so many folks out there. That's just been, that's really blown me away.

Candice Schutter: 1:39:22

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper: 1:39:23

To see that.

Candice Schutter: 1:39:25

Well, thank you for everything you've done. And thanks for Q'in my A.

Tracy Stamper: 1:39:29

Absolutely.

Candice Schutter: 1:39:41

Well folks, that is, as they say, all she wrote. As imperfect as it may have been, I feel proud of this work. Best case scenario, me and my guests sharing our process publicly, hopefully it will help others to avoid the psychosocial lairs that we found ourselves caught in. Before I wrap today, I want to take a moment to acknowledge some people directly. First and foremost, Tracy Stamper, for being brave enough to step into the arena with me. And for being an empathic space holder for so many grieving hearts. Tracy is the personification of kindness and sensitivity, and I've learned so much walking alongside her. To my partner, Chris, for supporting this project. His is the hand that I hold when it all feels like too much, and he's the one who cheers the loudest when I stay true to myself. To Sylvia, my bestie and sister of the heart who continually teaches me through living example what true friendship and unconditional love is. Believe it or not, she and I met while working at the Org, and our friendship is still one of the best things to come out of those bittersweet years. To every cult'ure Series guest who trusted me and this platform with their story. Thank you. I would have never been able to continue this long if you hadn't joined me in speaking up, and it's your courage that carried me through. To my friends and listeners here who are current and former Org peeps, never forget: no one holds the keys to your salvation. And the magic that you discover while dancing, it belongs to you. Everything you've embodied is yours. You already paid for it. You are indebted to no one. And to any of you out there who are grieving the loss of a once self-defining relationship, community, or political worldview, I see you, and I get it. It can and it will get easier. Stay the course and stay true to you. And to everyone listening out there, thank you so much for tuning in. I'm deeply humbled by your attention and also the grace of your understanding. Because I want to take a second to celebrate those moments when you stuck around even though you disagreed with what I had to say. Or when I spoke about something in a way that conflicted with how you like to walk through the world. Making room for our differences, this is the real work of cult recovery. Making room for more than one truth at a time, this is the only way that we humans are ever going to learn how to come together. I like to think that this content is evergreen, so I'm going to pay to keep it streaming here. Feel free to revisit and share links as you feel inspired. And if you'd like to reach me at any point for any reason, you can do so at thedeeperpulse.com/share. Okay, that's it for the'cult'ure series. If you want to keep your finger on the deeper pulse, consider becoming a Patreon subscriber, where our weekly bonus episode rhythm will shift to monthly. You can learn more at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. Thanks again for tuning in and be well.