The Deeper Pulse with Candice Schutter
Hi. I'm Candice Schutter. I started The Deeper Pulse podcast about a year into the pandemic when I was feeling lost and desperate for connection. I began with sharing personal stories, striving to make sense of life and my own stilted self-expression. In the process, I encountered some spiritual wounds and dove headfirst into the world of cult recovery, discovering that - not only did it hold the key to a door that I’d been banging on since I was a child - it may even offer us a way out of the royal mess we're making of this whole being human thing. On TDP, my guests and I talk about the everyday labor of self-expression, unpack what puts the 'cult' culture, and brave sweaty-palm truths to restore collective agency and self-dominion.
If you're new to the pod, Ep.1-17 are all about recovering from feelings of stuckness. And if you're recovering from a high-demand relationship, workplace, wellness 'cult'ure, and/or just generally feeling passionate around issues of social justice - check out episodes 32+.
The Deeper Pulse with Candice Schutter
#81 - Trojan Horse: The NAR Movement, Christian Nationalism, & The Cult of Trump | Nikki G - Part 1 of 2
American democracy is hanging on by a thread. But how did we get here? Today's episode offers an insider's peek into Christian nationalism. You may remember Nikki G from Ep.77; she was on the pod back in January, sharing about her work as a Certified Trauma Recovery Coach who specializes in spiritual and religious abuse. In early March, Candice invited her to sit down again for this two-part conversation. Nikki is a former devotee in the evangelical movement whose passion at the time was "governmental intercession." In Part 1 of this dialogue, she peels back the curtain on the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) Movement and how its decades-long perversion of Christianity has infiltrated US politics. Nikki lays out the bones of the movement's history and gives us a feel for what it’s like inside NAR's apostolic hubs, all working in coordination toward the same end-game. She walks us through Lance Wallnau’s 7 Mountain Mandate, a strategic plan to impose religious order on the masses and shamelessly colonize every aspect of American culture. Nikki tells us what it was like, watching evangelical leaders embrace Trump prior to the first election; then she and Candice discuss why he’s actually the ideal point man for the movement. This episode lays a critical foundation for the Heritage Foundation's far-right playbook (Project 2025) and where this conversation will be headed next week, in Part 2.
Nikki G. is a Certified Trauma Recovery Coach who helps survivors recover and thrive after Religious Trauma & Cult involvement. She is also survivor of multiple narcissistic relationships, religious trauma, and several cultic communities. Nikki is the CEO of Nikki G Speaks LLC, which provides survivors with individual coaching, online community, and psychoeducation related to religious trauma, narcissistic abuse, and cult involvement. Nikki is a co-host of the podcast “Surviving the Black Church” where she and her co-hosts delve into conversations regarding religious trauma in the Black Church. She is also the co-founder of The Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network and she sits on the board of directors for Tears of Eden, a non-profit organization that supports survivors who have experienced abuse in the evangelical community. nikkigspeaks.com | @nikki_g_speaks
Referenced In This Episode:
- God & Country - documentary
- Power Worshippers, by Katherine Stewart
- Conspirituality Episode #187 - Project 2025
- Mindshift Podcast - Exposing Project 2025
The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.
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Welcome back to The Deeper Pulse and the continuation of the'cult'ure series. If you'd like to help keep the main feed of this podcast ad free, and gain immediate and unlimited access to bonus content, consider becoming a patron of the pod. Head over to patreon.com/thedeeperpulse to learn more. In today's episode, we're shifting our focus to American politics. Well, sort of, we are. Because as you may have noticed, politics in the U.S. is no longer business as usual. And today's guest is going to give us a bit of context around why that is, offering an insider's understanding around how Christian nationalism is unmistakably on the ballot as we head into the 2024 presidential election. So let's get right to it. The stories and opinions shared here are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual or organization. It's one of my most vivid memories as a child. Standing with my classmates each morning at the start of the school day, pledging allegiance to the flag. The words of that pledge are forever etched in my mind. One nation, under God. I did a little digging and learned that the Pledge of Allegiance became a thing in the late 1800s, in the aftermath of the Civil War, when our nation's loyalties were still deeply divided. And it was instituted as a daily practice in public schools in 1892, right alongside our nation's first observance of Columbus Day. Yeah, Columbus. There's a lot to unpack there, but not today. Instead, I want to talk about one specific phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance,"under God." Because these two words were not a part of the original version. In fact, they were added in 1954. Thanks, in large part, to a campaign led by the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fraternity of men who spent a number of years lobbying for this revision. And it was during President Eisenhower's term, he's the one who signed it into law, apparently, not long after he himself was baptized Protestant. All reference to God aside, I'm not all that keen on the notion of pledging allegiance. But I guess coming from a never been married woman in her late forties, this should come as no surprise. Don't get me wrong, loyalty is very important to me, but it should never be confused with blind obedience. But I'll spare you yet another diatribe on agency, and just say that when it comes to standing in unwavering allegiance to anything or anyone, in my mind, there's way more than one flag waving. But even so, patriotism in its purest expression, it's a huge part of U.S. History and national identity. I get that. And at face value, standing for liberty and justice for all, you bet, I'm all about that. But if I've learned anything doing this series, it's that idealism doesn't always translate into action. And words are a very poor substitute for the hard labor of actual integrity. And things get particularly watered down when spirituality or religious zeal enters into the picture. Freedom isn't a function of dogma. And it's certainly not guaranteed by paying homage to a flag. It's hard work. And if we're sincere in our desire to guarantee it to all, that means making room for endless variation, incessant change, and dogma free diversity. Which is why I'm betting that the founders of this nation, despite their many glaring blind spots, made every attempt possible to carve a clear line between church and state. Now certainly Christianity has been the ever present dominant faith in Washington and across the country since always. But, at least when it comes to majority rule, it has for the most part, stayed on the periphery of policy debates. Until recently that is. There has been a shift in the past few decades. And what is that about? In her book, The Power Worshippers: Inside The Dangerous Rise of Religious Nationalism, Katherine Stewart writes, quote:"For too long now, America's Christian nationalist movement has been misunderstood and underestimated. Most Americans continue to see it as a cultural movement, centered on a set of social issues, such as abortion and same sex marriage, preoccupied with symbolic conflicts over monuments and prayers. But the religious right has become more focused and powerful, even as it is arguably less representative. It is not a social or cultural movement. It is a political movement, and its ultimate goal is power. It does not seek to add another voice to America's pluralistic democracy, but to replace our foundational democratic principles and institutions with a state grounded on a particular version of Christianity, answering to what some adherents call'a biblical worldview' that also happens to serve the interest of its plutocratic funders and allied political leaders. The movement is unlikely to realize its most extreme visions, but it has already succeeded in degrading our politics and dividing the nation with religious animus. This is not'a culture war.' It's a political war over the future of democracy." I highly recommend Stewart's book as well as the documentary based on it, which is called God Country. I'll link to both in the show notes. People who know me well can attest to the fact that I'm really a glass-is-half-full kind of gal. I tend towards hopeful. And I have to say, even me, I'm beginning to wonder if Stewart's optimism is warranted when she writes"the movement is unlikely to realize its most extreme visions," because it seems like routinely, repeatedly in the last few years I have been blindsided by one unlikely event after another. I can still recall the dissociative haze I was in, in the days following the results of the 2016 election. And since then, it's sort of been a cascading series of one dumbfounding revelation after another. Some of which, admittedly, shouldn't have surprised me, and none of which I expected. A Muslim travel ban. A newly elected president defending the actions of white nationalists. Migrant children being separated from their families at the border, locked in cages. The strategic appointing of far right judges at every level of government, including three Supreme Court justices, one of which is an alleged sex offender. Americans all across the country waving'Don't Tread On Me' flags while refusing to wear masks and ignoring vaccine requirements while a global pandemic kills millions of people worldwide. An insurrection instigated by a sitting president who refuses to accept the results of a free and fair election. And government representative after government representative lining up to adamantly support The Big Lie. I really wanted to believe once Biden was elected, that American democracy, as dysfunctional as it was even prior to Trump, would return to something that somewhat resembled normalcy. But since then Roe v. Wade has been overturned. Books are being banned. LGBTQ+ folks are being threatened in more ways than one. And women's bodies and lives have somehow become less important to conservative lawmakers than test tube embryos. I mean, every damn day, it's like, what fresh hell is this? Admittedly, some part of me kinda sorta misses the days when I used to just opt out of the'low-vibe' news cycle. But actually not really, because I can't unsee what I know now, which is that complacency of that sort is a huge contributor to how we got where we are now as a nation. And speaking of here, we are again, six months before the presidential election and the Republican party has once again, chosen Trump as their nominee, despite the fact that he's now a convicted sexual predator and a criminal defendant facing multiple indictments. Nevertheless, he continues to be legitimized by people in his party. And therefore, in some ways it could be argued that Trump is more powerful than ever. Backed wholeheartedly by conservative politicians and evangelical power players, which in many instances, we'll soon learn, are one in the same. And just a heads up, if you don't already know, the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank out of Washington that really came into its own during the Reagan administration, it has in recent months compiled a document known as Project 2025. A 900+ page collection of policy proposals outlining, in staggering detail, an immediate restructuring of the executive branch of government and the implementation of what is known as unitary executive theory, wherein the president would be granted absolute power. This is authoritarianism, my friends. Russell Vought, a former Trump official who's involved in the project, he describes it this way, quote,"The President, day one, will be a wrecking ball for the administrative state." And I realize that might sound like hyperbole, but really, folks, there's a lot to it. Give it a Google. Or check out some of the links I've dropped in the show notes to a handful of podcasts where folks have been covering the particulars. It's really sobering stuff. If learning about Project 2025 doesn't motivate level-headed voters to turn out in droves, I'm really not sure what will. And of course, truth be told, it's a little hard not to sound like an alarmist these days when everyone everywhere seems riled up about this or that conspiracy theory. But this, this isn't that. This is, I'm sorry to say, a real deal power grab that has been slowly and steadily building momentum for decades. Some of you might remember back in March when Lara Trump was made co chair of the Republican National Committee. Lara is the wife of nepo baby, Eric Trump. And, and this is the part I'm really going to invite you to pay close attention to, when her position was first announced publicly, here's how she was introduced and brought onto the stage."In a world where qualifications are often measured by titles and years of experience, we are reminded of a powerful truth. God does not call the qualified. He qualifies the called. Lara Trump is the embodiment of this truth." Now it's kind of hard to look beyond the built in punchline here. Oh, so many comedians across the nation had a heyday highlighting this humdinger of an underhanded insult. Because the implication being, there really is no one less qualified for this position, but you know, take it up with God. All jokes aside, here's the thing. It's really important we don't miss the significance of the words that were chosen here, because they point to the ideology at the heart of the radicalization of the Republican Party. One line in particular with troubling implications. God does not call the qualified, he qualifies the called. As I understand it, this is a phrase repeated quite often in evangelical circles, and it really points to what is at the heart of today's episode. And why friend of the pod, Nikki G, is back for a two-part deep dig into the roots of Christian nationalism and its slow and steady march on Washington. If you tuned into episode 77, you already know that Nikki left a series of evangelical organizations prior to Trump's first election campaign. And one of them, International House of Prayer, also known as IHOPKC, recently ousted church founder, Mike Bickle, after they were no longer able to keep under wraps decades of sexual abuse allegations against him. But IHOP is just one of a great many evangelical organizations across the country. And they're more powerful than you might imagine. Nikki's here to share with us what it's been like, walking away from a high-demand culture of dysfunction, only to witness a critical mass of Americans becoming radicalized in the same ideology that she and so many others are doing their best to kick themselves free from. She's been watching in horror as the misguided activism she was once a part of has since spilled through the doors of the Oval Office and into legislative chambers at both state and local levels. Roots laid long ago, now bearing fruit on all three branches of the U.S. Government. Now given that it's an election year, you're probably hearing from others who are speaking to these issues. Thankfully, the more the better. But I just want to say that talking with Nikki has illuminated my understanding of these topics more than anything else really. Because if we really want to be prepared to meet the beast at the gate, we need much more than an academic understanding. Nikki was, at one time, an evangelical insider. A hand to heart, boots on the ground believer. And today, she's here to share with us what goes on behind the curtain. Who and what powers this movement? And what is their aim? And I, we, want to be crystal clear. This is not a critique on Christianity in general. It's an examination of a perversion of religious teachings that was born out of a lust for power and influence. And that sadly, has dug its claws deep into the fabric of American politics. The first amendment of the US Constitution reads:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble." Freedom of speech is one of the hallmarks of American democracy, along with freedom of the press and the right to peacefully protest. But the first clause of this amendment focuses on freedom from religious imposition. It's called the Establishment Clause. And this country's founding document guarantees that we the people have the right to choose how and if we want to worship, and that Congress shall make no law infringing upon said freedom. And let's be clear, any attempt to impose religious belief onto others, this is not an expression of religious liberty, this is once again a power-over perversion of it. In case you missed Episode 77 and my first conversation with Nikki G, back in January she joined me to share her personal story. What it was like growing up in a narcissistic family system and how she turned to religion as a balm, only to find herself in a series of high-demand groups where she reenacted many of the traumas of her youth. Nikki eventually left that world behind and began her process of healing, eventually becoming a certified trauma recovery coach. She now uses her hard-earned insights to support spiritual and religious trauma survivors, specializing in the unique considerations of those who are exiting the Black Church. You can find out more about Nikki and her work by visiting the show notes. My conversation with Nikki G will roll out in two parts. In Part 1, she takes us right into the belly of the beast, sharing the history of the NAR movement and its strategic aims, which have since become a major part of the American political landscape. Let's get into it. Here's part one with Nikki. Hey Nikki G. I'm so happy to be back here on the podcast with you. Thank you so much for coming back to The Deeper Pulse.
Nikki G:Yes, this is one of my favorite places now. So thank you, Candice.
Candice Schutter:Oh my gosh. That makes me so happy. I just, I so enjoy talking with you and I've been looking forward to this specific recording session with you. Which is most likely, y'all out there, going to roll out in a couple of parts. Cause we've got a lot to talk about today. And I've been, yeah, I know we've both been preparing for this. We've had some behind the scenes conversations and emails and note taking and. And I know we're coming into this kind of in all the feels because so much of this is in our faces. And it's in your history and your body, too, Nikki. So how are you feeling coming into this today? Yeah.
Nikki G:Feeling you know a few different emotions just kind of going down memory lane to prepare to share. And then just seeing you know where things are headed. And kind of keeps me a little bit stunned, jarred, you know. I don't know. But I think this is a necessary conversation. So we may have, like you said, one or two parts. I may do some subsequent teaching or sharing and presenting on this information. Because it's vital. Not just the time we're in right now. Not just because it's an election year but this is vital to the health of this country in general. So you know we're
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:gonna be getting political. We're going to be getting into all the feels, uh, this episode. So yeah I'm ready.
Candice Schutter:Yeah. Yeah. Well, well thank you for trusting this platform to lay out this foundation. And of course we will in the show notes include links, especially if after this rolls out, if you start to add events and stuff like that, we'll let folks know how to be a part of those ongoing conversations. And I hope that we can, um, if we need to have follow up conversations. Because I have a feeling that all of this is really going to evolve and come to a head in the coming months. And that really, this is just kind of the beginning of a much longer conversation, that unfortunately we're going to have to keep having because of the impact.
Nikki G:Yeah, absolutely. I know this may be redundant what I'm about to say. I think what I'm about to say a lot of people have heard for decades. But it still rings true. We can't afford to put our head in the sands anymore, because we are in a crucial time, globally but particularly in our country. And I don't think people are aware of what's going on behind the scenes. I mean, I don't think anybody enjoys an election year. I know I don't. Um but I think perhaps the average American can look at it from a very surface perspective. And oh, it's the Democrat it's the Republican, I don't want to deal with it. But I think it is important What we will be discussing on this episode that people hear. And you know, disclaimer it may be very jarring. It may make you angry. It may make you want to throw a shoe or something like that. But I hope that it will make you want to know more. The more you know, the more we know, the more we share, the more we help others to understand what we're up against. And I'll be transparent to say, I personally don't have a remedy. It's not my job to save America. You don't have a remedy But I think, you know, controlling what we do have control over which is our ability to learn this information and not put our heads in the sand. And then to share it with others. Not to be afraid to share it, you know.
Candice Schutter:Absolutely. Beautifully said. And, and I think the reason why it felt so important to have you on to talk about this specifically is, I feel like you, knowing you, talking with you, my eyes have been opened to just how deep the roots of the, um, sort of circumstance we're facing in terms of this particular election. And, you know, this word Christian Nationalism is a word that I've heard for many years, obviously more so in recent years. And I didn't fully understand the mechanisms of that ideology until I sat with you, Nikki, and you began to explain to me the history. And so before we go into, I guess we're sort of laying out the bones for people of like what's operating.
Nikki G:Mm hmm.
Candice Schutter:Share with listeners who maybe didn't listen to Episode 77 with you, which I want to urge everyone to go back and listen to if you missed it, the first time you were on the podcast. How it is that, you know, so much about this topic. And can bring so much to this conversation. Give us a little context.
Nikki G:Well, I I wish I didn't have to experience it to know a lot of this information.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:But I guess, you know, there is some, uh, benefit from it. So I'll start off and say a certified trauma recovery coach. And I support individuals who've experienced spiritual abuse religious trauma narcissistic abuse and cult involvement. The reason why all three is because I've experienced all three at my young age. But yes, I've lived full life already it seems like. But you know, when I was a part of, um, and I say multiple cults, unfortunately, I was in uh various type of cults. But would say the last three were infused a lot what we're discussing today. And I didn't know when in there I'm learning a whole manifesto of what we are witnessing now what we witnessed on The Trump administration what we potentially be witnessing you know, um, in this election year. And I didn't know at that point in my life I just thought, hey, I'm loving God. I'm learning these things. This has to be right. These men and women of God are anointed. And so, you know, when I got saved eons ago, one of my favorite things to do once I started developing relationship with Jesus and reading the Bible was I loved to pray. That was my thing, right. I loved to pray. And, um let me back up real quick. How I got saved ironically, I grew up in church, but got saved. And I don't remember if I said this last pod, but I got saved by reading conspiracy theory books. One of the biggest, of the most impactful ones was a book called Behold the Pale Horse by William Cooper. And he lays out the New World Order, Illuminati, Thirteen Bloodlines all this stuff. And so I was in college, I found out about it. I started reading the material and I went down a rabbit hole, going through all material, going to the library and looking articles. I was really a researcher. That's just me. I like to learn. And doing that, everything tracking back to a lot of the books in the Bible. Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, end time books, apocalyptic books. And that drew me in. But it brought me to conclusion that, okay, this stuff gonna happen, perhaps, and if does, where is safety in of this? Oh, Jesus, he's gonna do this, that, and the third. And I'm gonna be safe, and all this stuff. So let me, let me get saved. I mean, initially, it was fear of what I had just read. And it was also you know being brought up a religious family system. But I say that to that to say, when I found myself in different cults. And I say cults based off of my experience and my expertise. But it was there that I started to really learn more about intercession, and particularly governmental intercession. So this was my thing. Governmental intercession, praying for the government, praying for the nation, praying for the nations of the world. And so, you know, connecting with IHOP, which opened the door for me to connect with these other groups that we'll talk about later, they had that same language. They had that same theme in their ministries and organizations. But intercession, governmental intercession was the thing that that really pulled me into connecting with a lot of these other ministries. And I just kind of swam in all these different organizations and ministries. And so I've sat with some of the leaders that I'll be discussing today. I've sat with some of them. I've met some of them. I've not sat with them exclusively, but I've met some of them and been to their centers and participated in intercession. I didn't get as far as going to the White House and things of that nature. But I understood their playbook enough. Because I believed it at the time. I had no idea. If you told me 10 years ago, 11 years ago, that what I was in and the ideology that I believed wholeheartedly was, and you'll hear me say this a lot, spiritual colonization. I would have
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:I would have never believed that. So when I left, I started to understand more and just kind of shuddered at the agendas set for this nation. And it is far beyond Democrat or Republican. And I don't think we really know what's coming.
Candice Schutter:Yeah. You say this word intercession, was that a word that was used within those communities? Like this is the aim, or is that a term that you developed looking back on what was happening?
Nikki G:No no no. It's it's considered intercession. And it's part of the NAR movement, New Apostolic Reformation. I did not make them up. They were part of these ministries. And I came into it to understand. But intercession is standing in between, and this is the belief, standing in between God and the situation. And you are literally becoming a liaison. And you are assisting God to have his will that's in heaven, be done on earth. And a lot of these movements, they are constantly bombarding people with the clarion call that God is looking for intercessors. As if he can't do anything else on Earth unless someone is standing in between the situation and God to allow God to move. On behalf of the prayer, what was petitioned, and things things of that nature. So that's kinda, in my words, intercession and how they look at intercession.
Candice Schutter:Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Which really sort of provides kind of an ideal transition to speaking about NAR and what it is in terms of when you described the history to me that I'm hoping you'll, you'll kind of lay the groundwork for the listeners of this movement. And how far back does it go? Like what we're seeing unfold now, tell us a little bit about its, its origins.
Nikki G:Well, you know again this term NAR is not very well known. I mean, if you think about people talking about the religious right. You hear that terminology used more. You hear Christian nationalism used more, right? You know, the, the Christian fringe movement. You hear that used more. But NAR is the belly of all of that. It's the undercurrent of all of that. And it kind of started with um he's deceased now. His name is Peter Wagner. And he believed he was an apostle. And he believed that God was looking to restore, a certain type of governance in the body of Christ. And if it's restored in the body of Christ, it will be restored in America It'll be restored in the nations of the earth. I want to say this What we're going to be talking about now, some people may be listening and saying, well, I'm a Christian. I've never heard of that I just love Jesus read my Bible and I'm fine God bless you. I'm not talking necessarily about you. This is another level of Christianity that exists to the point that there are people within Christianity that are, have been pushing against the NAR movement. They don't like it. They don't agree with it. So if this seems foreign to you, that's probably a good thing because this is a whole nother world okay? Well, Peter Wagner felt that God had been speaking to him. And saying, the way Christianity had been running is insufficient And there needs to be a new way a new model a new form of governance. Now this tracks back when, you think about Christianity in general. And I'm not a church historian so for those that listen you probably can run circles around me. But I'm just giving some just basic things for context. Martin Luther had the Martin Luther Reformation where they said, okay, this Catholicism thing is taking things over and everything is based on the Pope and what the Pope thinks and he's basically God. We don't like that. So we're going to have a reformation. So there was a Protestant Reformation. Out of that Reformation, people always ask where are all these denominations coming from? It came out of that movement. That was considered the second wave. And so you have in the Protestant Reformation. You have Episcopalianism. You have Pentecostals. You have Charismatics. You have Anglicans. You have Baptists, Calvinists, and so forth. And so all these different denominations form still a part of Christianity, but it is not considered Catholicism and the way they practice the way they function two totally different things. Well NAR comes out of that Protestant movement and it comes out of mostly a mixture of evangelicalism, a little bit of fundamentalism, a little bit of Pentecostalism, all the things. So they believe in the gifts of the spirit. They believe the activity of the Holy spirit and people getting involved in the grand scheme of the plan that God wants to enact on the earth. So some people say, hey, I don't subscribe to that. I don't believe that. Well, they do. And so because that is, you know, the bedrock of their belief system that we partner with God and get involved in everyday affairs on this planet is huge. Because people say, well, why would anybody want to do this? Leave people alone. They cannot leave people alone. Their belief system teaches that they have to get involved, right. Peter Wagner said, okay, you want a third reformation? Is that what you're saying? And he believed that God was asking for that. And he believed what God was asking for, like I said earlier was a different form of governance. Not to sit back and be passive, but a militant church. A church that's not weak. A church that's not just letting the world and secularism just go all over the place. They believe we have to take dominion. And we're doing it for God and his agenda.
Candice Schutter:And when, when was the timeline on this? So at what point was this development occurring?
Nikki G:well I think, from what I remember like in the 1990s, Peter Wagner start having this language, you know. But I would say maybe uh mid 2000s, it really started taking off. You know there was language, and I don't think he was the only person. I mean, he coined the phrase new apostolic reformation. But I think other people were gathering and having the same type of discussion that this is needed. Um but he's the point person I would say that provided all this information. But they believe in a nutshell, God is coming in and the governance is that the five-fold ministry that exists, which is the evangelist, the prophet, the apostle, the pastor, and it's the teacher. Now that's out of order to some degree, but those are the five-fold ministry. And they believe that God is calling for the apostle and the prophet of that five-fold ministry to be at the helm of everything. That God is saying this is a new governance. It used to be back in the day and I want to reestablish it. My apostles and my prophets have the ability to see and the ability to strategize and you will lead out this next great reformation. This is what they believe. They believe God has given them delegated authority to see, to strategize, and then to teach And it may seem like, oh, what's wrong with that? Well, we are basing this on men and women who feel like they're called to be an apostle and a prophet. And these are men and women that claim that they have dreams, visions, divine revelations from God himself that gives them these marching orders. To go and instruct the church and then the church walk it out. And we are relying on someone hearing from God, having these encounters, without any oversight without any checks and balances. And you're saying this is supposed to change the whole scope of the nation and the world? That is scary.
Candice Schutter:Yeah, it is.
Nikki G:But I didn't see it as such when I was in there. I was under the belief system. These are men and women of God. They do hear from God. So because I believed it, I didn't see anything wrong with it. And we'll, we'll go into more detail after I came out and the stark difference between what I believed and what I was under. And now really seeing the reality. You know those commercials, I think it's with the Febreze. And they talk about somebody being nose blind. And they spray Febreze. And it's a mess all around and they didn't see. That's how It was. I was Febrezed. And I did not realize it was a mess.
Candice Schutter:It was stanky.
Nikki G:It was stanky, okay? Um but yeah. So you know, they believe again, that God has entrusted his apostles and his prophets to do this. And you, someone may say, well, Nikki how do we know for real that they are that? We don't know. Some people feel like well I went through hard knocks in life, and God has anointed me when I was on vacation. And I saw a light come. And for some people they may think I'm being facetious. I'm not. But these are the type of stories you hear. Or they might've gone to another church service, and buddy who's already ordained as an apostle says, hey, you're an apostle, too. Come on up to the front. Let me anoint you in front of everybody. It's not that hard in a lot of these spaces to claim that title. And then people start to exert control because they wear the badge. I'm the delegated authority. God has told me thus and so, and people start to listen to this.
Candice Schutter:When we spoke before you were explaining to me, because one of my first questions as somebody who's never been in these environments was, okay, so explain to me, what's the difference between a prophet and an apostle? And it actually was a really revealing, the answer revealed a lot about this larger mission. Can you tell us about that?
Nikki G:The apostle, I'll start there, has been considered to be the the head of the five-fold ministry. You know they consider Jesus to be an apostle and a prophet and an, all the five-fold, right. Then you had Apostle Paul. And so an apostle usually has characteristics as far as the function, they're very strategic They're the ones that set up camp. They're the ones that can see how everything comes together. They're strategists, if you will. They cast vision for the church. And they cast vision for the people.
Candice Schutter:They assign people, right? With tasks.
Nikki G:Yeah. They assign people with tasks. They oversee churches. If I was an Apostle and I would be over at this church and this church. I make sure that their, everything is okay. The pastors come to me if they need advice, if they need leadership, if they need guidance. So they're the overseers of what happens a lot these churches. The evangelist goes the person and gets them saved. The evangelist brings the person to church. Then pastor nurtures that person that's in the church. The prophet prophesies to that person and says, you're called be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the teacher comes alongside that and teaches them how can start functioning in that. And the apostle oversees all. But you talk about the prophet, the prophet's function is, you know, and I'm giving language to what I was in when I was there. They represent the heartbeat God. They represent the eyes of God. They're the seers. You know, the apostle may have the strategy. The prophet has the timing. You know, now we release this now we go after this. And I'm setting a stage. This may be a little boring sometimes, but I'm setting a stage on how this connects with the political realm. So NAR feels the weight of how the church is supposed to function now is on the apostles and the prophets. They're getting the vision they're creating the strategy and they're giving it to the people. So this is not regular church. Like I said earlier, this is not someone going to church hearing a message for 30 40 minutes,, had worship beforehand heard some announcements, you know, had some prayer and they go home. Again these people with the NAR agenda believe that that has been insufficient and has got where we are now in this nation, which they consider is now turning into a godless nation is now turning into a nation that does not care about God, does not care about holiness that does not care about righteousness. So it's always in their mind, we have a problem This needs to be fixed. It's not okay. God's not happy, then we're not happy, and we need to do something about it. Regular church that I just described, is not gonna cut it. So, they've created Apostolic Hubs. They realize the average church may not come on board with this type of governance that they are now establishing. So an apostolic hub, or it's also termed an apostolic center. It can still look like a church, right? They may even have a name you know, Candice and Nikki ministries. Of course, I'm making that up. So it may still seem like oh it's a ministry. That's not an apostolic hub. They don't usually say apostolic hub. They want to be stealth in a lot of these places. But basically what it is, it's the headquarters for those in the body of Christ that subscribe to this ideology. And the people that subscribe to this they get to assemble with the whoever the apostle and the prophet of that center is. They get to assemble, and it's not business as usual in the church. So what does it look like? If, if Candice was to walk into one now in her neck of the woods what would that look like?
Candice Schutter:I'm sure there's a few around here. Just saying.
Nikki G:Listen. Quiet as it's kept, they're everywhere. So you would not know, unless and a little well versed in what looks like. So the worship is probably very demonstrative. It's very like charged and electric. I mean you may see people with flags waving. You may see people blowing the shofar, which is, you typical in the Jewish faith or whatever. Because a lot of these centers are very pro Israel. So they've adopted a lot of their practices into their worship style. You will see the activities of the gifts of the spirit in motion. So may hear somebody singing on microphone. Somebody may come up and say, I have a word to give the congregation. That person, after they permission, they may be able to release that word to congregation. You may hear people say they're being caught up in a trance. And they're seeing, you know, America and start to have vision. And they're articulating this to the people in the center. It can be strange for who never been of this. And again this can look a little bit like Charismatics or Pentecostals. Very similar. So a lot of their style is fleshed into this. But what is different, and um I have a chart. It's not mine, but I have a chart. Just kind of just show the contrast. So with a church it's a destination. With an apostolic center they look at it as a launching pad. Launching pad to what? We'll get into that in a little bit. Church looks at it as territorial Apostolic centers they look at it relational. So now I'm going to connect with Candice, because Candice and I are to go and become members of the school board in our children's school. Because we want to establish that school for the glory of God. So now we're connecting, okay. We're networking in this apostolic center. The church, the lead person is the pastor. Apostolic,hub the leader is the apostle and the prophet. But the five-fold ministry come right up under as far as hierarchy of governance. The church, the pastor cares for the sheep. Apostolic center, it's a mobilization of God's army. Because there is much warfare that needs to tended to. So you're coming in with that mindset you know, And a church, The Bible is a form of connecting with God. You look at the scriptures to be a better human, to be a better daughter, a better husband, wife, what have you. The Bible in an apostolic center is used as a military manual. They are looking at the Bible to find keys and ways and strategy and tactics to now move out in a dominionism type of vibe. There's so much more that I can talk about with the differences, but just understand it is not business as usual. And this is all about taking over, taking dominion. How do we mobilize? How do we strategize? So we can start you know, branching out in our states, in our cities, in our country. So this state, country, and city can start looking like this apostolic center. Or furthermore, so it can start looking like heaven. Because they, they have a motto as it is in heaven so shall it be on the earth. And they really believe that. So as long as they see on the earth it does not look like their description of heaven, they will continue to contend until they see that. You know, a lot of people say, some Christians I've met, they're so angry. Because everything is warfare warfare, warfare. But a lot of Christians have been indoctrinated that it is their responsibility to totally transform their city, their state, their country,. And the globe and if they don't, they are letting down their God. That's a lot.
Candice Schutter:Yeah, which is why an understanding of cult dynamics and indoctrination is so profoundly helpful to this conversation. Because it really is sort of like a large scale, deeply rooted, ongoing recruitment strategy to bring people into this ideology and to make it. I mean, in some ways, most cults that we study have the vision to, you know, um, to, to make a mark of this magnitude. But this is maybe one of the first ones who's having such a massive impact on our nation Because it is a cultic headspace.
Nikki G:Yes.
Candice Schutter:It is. Yeah.
Nikki G:And you know, some people may look listen to this and say well, that's not me. That's not my family. I'm not involved in that. So this cool to learn, but that's not going to affect me. I want to say emphatically and look you in your eye right now and say, those days over. I have been out of these systems that I'm describing some years now, and it has still affected me. Not because of the experiences I had or the trauma that may still be in body. I'm working through that, so that's not what I'm talking about. It is still affecting me, because everything I'm describing is starting to be directly connected to our government. And there are laws we have not seen that are ready be implemented if a certain person gets in office. And we'll get to that. And it will directly affect you. And I'm not just talking about your pocketbook. I'm talking about your family. I'm talking about your way of life. Everything. And I'm not trying to fear monger. We are in a time that we cannot afford to not know this, so that we can try to do something about it. And I'm purposely trying to explain the NAR culture and explain the NAR beliefs because it is very linked to what we may possibly see start to be fleshed out in America. And know that impossible. It is far from impossible where we sitting right now.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:Right.
Candice Schutter:That's right.
Nikki G:In the apostolic hub, another belief system is we, the church, are the kingdom of God. And kingdom of God is at hand. And it is again it is our responsibility to let thy will be done. That is not just a prayer that they prayed when they were young before they went to sleep. This is a belief system. This is an ideology. It is the church's responsibility to help facilitate that kingdom coming and his will being done. And so typical messages that are preached in these apostolic centers. Overemphasis of your calling. So it's not once a year you hear a message about, you have purpose, you have destiny. There's a reason why you're here. You might not have found it yet, but keep believing you will find it. Some churches they preach messages like that once or twice a year. Not in an apostolic center. This is indoctrinated in you. Your calling your, purpose is imperative. So they start to say, what are good at? Candice, they would consider you a part of the communication and the media mountain. And someone could say well who let them play God and decide what the will of God is? I agree They really believe That they have some divinity about them to be able to do this. It sounds crazy and bizarre but they actually believe this. Spiritual coverings is very important in this particular ideology. And what does that mean? Well, Candice and I, let's say we go to this apostolic center and we're sitting there we're friends and we're hearing all these messages. And you know, let's say service is over, and Candice, you look at me and you say, Nikki, you know, what? I was really inspired. I think I I want to do something in media beyond my podcast, you know. And you start researching. And you call me, I got it. I want to do da da da da da. I think I'm going to go and maybe start a radio station. And I'm like, that's awesome, Candice. But you probably need to run it by the prophet of the apostolic center first, you know. And then you go run it by the prophet, and he says, wait a minute, Candice, now. You've been coming to this center for a few years now. Who is your spiritual mother and your father? Who are you submitted to besides us here at the center?
Candice Schutter:Submitted to? That's it, that's the language? Wow. Okay.
Nikki G:Yeah. Who are you submitted to? Who is taking responsibility to make sure you are mentored in the things of God? Who is praying for you? Who is the person that you can go and contact? And this is not meaning me, your friend. This is the person who would be your covering. And this is where patriarchy can start merging here. Because a lot of these centers, they don't say it, but they believe if you are a woman and you are gifted and you have all these ideas, where's your husband? Because if you don't have a husband, you are out of covering. But if you have spiritual mothers and fathers, that will be a great substitution for now. But the ideal covering, especially if you're a woman, you need to have a husband, right? Some centers will actually use that language. But for the most part, it is not that direct and not that raw. But you start to see, these people are moving up in positions in the center, because they have a husband or they have a covering. The reason for the covering is if you are just a renegade, for lack of a better word. You're filled with zeal. You're filled with ideas. You want to start moving out and doing all this stuff. What happens if you get out there, and it's not the right thing? If you had a covering, someone could pray for you, get the timing of God, get the will of God for your life with you to make sure that you are being, these are the terms they use, birthed out at the right time, with the right thing, for the right purpose. You don't have a cover and you're just a renegade moving on your own.
Candice Schutter:And let's talk about this word prayer for a second. Because the way that, again, as somebody who didn't grow up in these environments, my idea of prayer from over here and a largely agnostic experience of life. But, you know, lots of dabbling in spirituality. I've always kind of thought of prayer as, and I think this is important to distinguish, because I think there's a lot of listeners who are going to relate to this, as sort of this passive pursuit. Like people who are praying over you. Well, they're just, you know, they've just, they're just having their magical thinking thoughts and saying their things. And maybe they have really wonderful intentions and people have different beliefs around whether or not that has an impact, right. But it's this sort of passive supportive thing that people are doing behind the scenes. But what I hear you describing is more of like, almost like a channeling direction for folks. Am I getting that? Am I reading that right?
Nikki G:Mmhmm.
Candice Schutter:So when you say, and there's, there's a conversation that we'll have a little bit later where you tell the story about praying for something that actually we've seen come to pass since then. And the part of me that's very removed from religion thinks, like, well, prayer, what is that really doing? But it's actually, in this movement, very tied to action. It's very tied to action, right? Do you want to speak to that for a second? Cause I think people need to really understand these people praying over you and we're going to make this change by praying about it. It's really more than that.
Nikki G:Yeah. And that is, again, that is part the foundation of a lot of this belief system. I mean, prayer is a big part of most religions in general, you know. But this version Christianity, prayer is, the meaning is different. You know, it, like you said, I like that word, channeling. You know, and it and as far as the spiritual covering. It is really, I'm praying, but I'm praying for you what want for you, you know, um. The organization that I co-founded, the Black Religious Trauma Recovery Network. We just had a meetup event yesterday and talked about spiritual parenting, and abusive practices with spiritual parenting in the Black Church. I've seen this happen outside of the Black Church but in the Black Church as well. But it's this whole notion that I cannot make major decisions unless this spiritual covering is involved in my life. So it is a very invasive, dysfunctional, codependent relationship. And these centers are really looking for that to be established before they feel like you can be released to go out and do things. You have to have a covering.
Candice Schutter:Right.
Nikki G:But really it's, we want you connected in case you don't represent us the way we want, therefore we know who to call, you know.
Candice Schutter:Right.
Nikki G:But that prayer piece. It's used to control and manipulate versus, you know. And I, again, I think a lot of people think like, oh, well, they're just praying that that's not harming me. That's not affecting me. I have my own perspective, let's just say about what actually takes place because of prayer and what actually takes place because people force their will.
Candice Schutter:Right.
Nikki G:Force their control to make something happen. Let's, let's say that. Because there are a lot of things that people who are religious who are spiritual claim that it's happening because of prayer. It's happening because I manifested it. It's happening because, you know, the tarot card said it so. And a lot of times some things are because people forced it to happen.
Candice Schutter:Mm hmm. Right.
Nikki G:Which is why I step back and say, people that are in this system, if you believe God so wholeheartedly that he's going to do these things, then why do you have to get so involved in it like that?
Candice Schutter:Exactly.
Nikki G:Why do you have to force the overturning of Roe v Wade if God was supposed to end abortion and send revival to America? But again, their belief system is God doesn't do it by himself.
Candice Schutter:Mm hmm.
Nikki G:He needs us to partner with him to get it done. And if they don't feel that God is doing it fast enough, well, we just going to surround Donald Trump. And we just going to send them in as a Trojan horse. And we're just going to get our will done no matter what. Because then it's like, okay, is it his will being done, or is it your will being done?
Candice Schutter:That's right.
Nikki G:you know,
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:there is a thin line between divine intervention and control, manipulation, and authoritarianism. Thin line.
Candice Schutter:Mmhmm.
Nikki G:They think it's God's will being done. The average person is saying, you're treading on me.
Candice Schutter:I know, right?
Nikki G:You're not allowing me choice and agency, which is what a lot of cults do that strip people of
Candice Schutter:Yes.
Nikki G:their voice, their choice, their agency. And this is what we're talking about. And again, to reiterate, we are having this discussion because their agenda will remove so much choice and agency from everybody, not just those who believe this ideology.
Candice Schutter:That's it.
Nikki G:So they preach these messages a lot. You need to have a spiritual mother and father. If you don't have a spiritual mother and father, you need to petition God and ask him to send you a spiritual father or a mother. And a spiritual mother and father is like a mentor, but it is a dysfunctional relationship. There is no consent. There is no choice. It's domination. Your spiritual mother and father could call you at 3am in the morning and say, God just woke me up. I just had a dream about you. And he gave me a word, and I need to release it to you right now. It's 3 in the morning. I have to take my kids to school. What are you doing? But I'm just giving a hypothetical example of, this is not in all apostolic centers but a lot of them this type of dysfunctional relational dynamics take place, and there's really no boundaries. And I've experienced situations with spiritual parents. I'll just say this. Coming out of a NARC family system, a religious NARC family system. And then getting saved by the age of 19. And then learning about all this stuff, and calls, and giftings, and moving out. It made me even the more desperate to find spiritual parents. Because I was not married. And I thought the only way I can move out on the dreams and visions that I thought God was giving me is if I was submitted to someone. So I looked and then I joined and I connected. And I always connected with the wrong people. I was definitely prey for spiritual parents who like to abuse. So the unmet needs or just, you know, dysfunctional family systems can breed that connecting to to, these types of people. Um,
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:Other messages in these centers. Surrender. Submit. Die to self so that his kingdom can come and his will be done. It's not about you. It's about his will. It's about his glory all over the planet. It's not about you. So if that means you gotta fast. You gotta pray. If that means you're uncomfortable, you do what you have to do, because we've got the blueprint. And this is what he wants to be established. And he's going to do it through you and through you and through you, so you're going to have to die to yourself. You're going to have to die to pleasure. You're going to have to die to, you know, wanting to hang out and have fun, because there is a lot at stake and God is depending on you. And the more you sacrifice, the more you submit, the more you surrender, you are pleasing God. This is crazy indoctrination. So when you, whoever's listening to me right now, you've got that one friend or that coworker on the job, and they are like really into all this stuff. And you're like, how can you, do you hear what you're saying? These are the reasons why. There is so much wrapped around their political ideology and perspective and it's way more than just the politics.
Candice Schutter:Mm hmm.
Nikki G:You know, how can you support Trump? It's way more than just supporting Trump. Especially if they come out of a NAR environment. Cause there are people that supported Trump in January 6th and things of that nature that are not a part of this. But they may be a part of more of the racism agenda. Or they may be a part of, you know, there are other organizations that were pro Trump and a lot of things he did that did not come out of these movements. But let's say you have that coworker, that family member, you know, that was so headstrong about, this is what God wants. This is why. It's not so much they were enamored with Trump. They've been indoctrinated with these beliefs that this is how God's will gets done on the Earth. And if Trump is the one to get it done, then we'll just deal with him. But God's will has to be done.
Candice Schutter:Right, right, right. Well, I, I really love that you emphasize, you spoke to it a little bit here. But in our last conversation talking about Trump as the Trojan horse and as the scapegoat. As this sort of shiny object that makes a lot of noise, that keeps us all very entertained while all these mechanisms are moving behind the scenes. And you're going to get into this, these seven mountains, these different aspects of the spiritual colonization, how it's happening. But he's like, kind of in some ways, as much as it seems antithetical to what we would think of as the presentation of somebody who's like an evangelical Christian. He's actually the perfect candidate in terms of his chaotic presentation.
Nikki G:Yes.
Candice Schutter:Will you speak to that for a minute? Cause I feel like we should get to that sooner rather than later so people really understand. Cause I think that's the big, one of the biggest confusions for folks are like, how, how? Why are they propping him up to such a degree where it borders on the absurd when he seems like the opposite of a poster child for what they supposedly stand for.
Nikki G:Before Trump decided that he wanted to run for office, you know, a lot of these NAR centers that I was part of, whether I was physically there or I was there remotely. Which newsflash, you be a part of a cult or high-demand group remotely, virtually and still be just ingrained in it and indoctrinated by it. So I had several going at the same time. And when Trump was running for election, I saw lot prophets and apostles start to come out and say, this is our man. God showed me a vision. I had a dream. God spoke to me. I saw it. This is our man. But then there were some that was that, oh, wait a minute now. Mm-mm. He's talking about grabbing women by the. And he's talking about this, that, and the third. Let's look his character. It does not seem Christlike. I don't support him. So, I was out of the cults. I was hibernating, trying heal from the last cult I came out of before Trump started running for office. And I didn't know all that I'm telling you now. But I knew enough where the smelling salt had opened me up, and I wasn't under a cult spell anymore. So I could see a little bit. And I was in observing mode, even though I didn't understand it then. And I watched prophet starting to go against prophet in different types of perspectives of what they wanted to do with Trump. And I say that for a reason, because as he got closer to becoming the Republican nominee, the first time around, they were feeling very troubled in their spirit. Eh, he don't represent Christ. Doesn't represent that. And the ones that were gung ho for Trump, they're like, but look. Look at all the things we can get if he gets in. Now, it was not presented that way. But I watched conferences where these prophets were on stage and talking about how, and I have, I have one in my mind right now, but I'm not going to say, how they were trying to convince these other ones, like, listen, I know it doesn't look right, but he's a Trojan horse. God worked with me. And I realized it was my own preferences standing in the way. I wasn't dying to self enough. I wasn't surrendering to God's higher plan. I had my own agenda, and God's agenda is higher. So I surrendered to what he wanted to do. And I told God, I don't like, but if you endorse them, then I will obey. And so when one leader comes that conclusion, then they tell their people through writings, through books, through all forms of media. And other people who were on the fence, pick this up. And well, if apostle so-and-so, if prophet so-and-so said, this how we go, then this is what we're going to do. And then a lot of people voted that way. But I saw them turn from, oh no, to, oh, we love him. He's kicking down the door. He's telling them liberals where to go. He's establishing this. He's gonna put people on the Supreme Court. And they became some of the loudest supporters, even stronger than the people that initially supported him from the beginning. And I just, I remember sitting there like, huh? How is this possible? He's like, represents everything that the Bible and God and the church doesn't stand for. How are y'all in bed with this type of person? Until I eventually later on realized, oh, wait a minute. A lot of y'all are the same.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:A lot of y'all have the same agenda. And you're like, well, Nikki, what agenda is that? Power.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:Control.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:Manipulation, domination, you know? So Trump used a lot of them to get the votes but. They used Trump to get the policies passed.
Candice Schutter:Yes, yes, exactly. And when we, and when we say a lot of y'all are like him. You know, I just want to be clear to the listeners. I know what you mean. And I just want to be clear to listeners. We're saying the people, these prophets and apostles who are self-anointed in many cases, who are flexing their own power. Who basically have their hand over all of the people who actually are operating with good intentions, who actually do think they're doing the right thing, who want to be good Christians, who maybe are kind, loving people out in the world, but who are taking their marching orders from these folks who are saying trust in God's plan and God's plan is Trump.
Nikki G:Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:And once they started seeing how boisterous he was. How, you know, like dominating he was, they started to like that. Because they realized, what they thought would get through when Reagan office, when Bush senior was office, when Bush Jr was in office. They got but so close. This one right here, though he is unconventional and doesn't represent what we represent, he's a Trojan horse. And we're gonna ride with him till the wheels fall off, so to speak. Because at the end of the day, he was their ticket to get a lot of this agenda that I've been talking about. He was their open door to do it. So this is why a lot of them would not budge for anything. When we start seeing the different things Donald Trump has done in his past and present. Many them have written books. There's book, his name will come up later. Lance Wallnau wrote a book and talks about Trump and how God has called him. And so lot of these apostolic centers, started pushing out media. There's an online website where you can go can get your daily prophecy, word from the Lord from various prophets and apostles in the body. So can log on there now and look at today's date, March 22nd, and say, oh wow, what is the word for today? I remember one I read. And I have to share this because this one was funny. I laughed then, and I laugh even more so now. And, I don't remember the prophet or apostle that said it. But they said they had vision. They were in prayer, and God took them up in the spirit. This is how they talk. Took him up in the spirit, and they had a vision and saw Donald Trump on the shoreline at a beach. He was just standing there looking out at the expanse. And a wave, huge wave started to come. And it started to come and crescendo, and then it came and, and, landed on his feet. And on the crest of that wave was prophet Moses from the Bible. And he got in front of Trump and said, God has called you to be a deliverer of this nation. And as he has given me the delivering anointing, I am now passing it on to you. But people that are in this apostolic center, people that are part of this version of Christianity, they believe this stuff wholeheartedly. Because these people have already solidified themselves as delegated authority.
Candice Schutter:And it's an insular environment. So just, that's, I mean, that's part of what makes it culty. It's an insular environment. You're only surrounding yourself with people who think and believe the same way you do. And I have to note, I just looked at our notes, that book by Lance Wallnau. It's called, God's Chaos Candidate: Donald J. Trump and the American Unraveling.
Nikki G:Yes.
Candice Schutter:Donald J. Trump and the American Unraveling, God's Chaos Candidate. I mean, he wrote a whole book about like, oh yeah, this is the guy. Yeah. I know he's chaotic, but you know, this is God's plan.
Nikki G:And he was one of Trump's. And this is in the beginning, he was loud and proud. And that was during election time, the first time. The other person who's loud and proud, and this may be familiar name for some people, because she had been friends with Donald Trump for decades before he actually ran. Her name is Paula White. She was one of his advisors when he became president. And people may know her video that came out when, you know, the results election were coming forward, and it was looking more like it was going to be Biden. It might've been a little after and they had declared Biden president. I don't remember the timeframe. But there's a video that had circulated. It got even on the news of her in apostolic center. And she's on the stage they're having service. And she started praying. And this is another thing happens a lot in these apostolic centers. The spiritual warfare and the releasing of angels to assist with what God wants. So I guess everybody in the church was praying that God's will will done and Donald Trump will be elected again. And she started praying, and she started praying tongues. They do believe it in the gifts of tongues in these centers. So she's praying in tongues. And then she starts saying, you know, send the angels. And so they believe, in these apostolic centers, of dispatching angels and telling them where to go to actually allow these things to happen that God wants. They had had visions that he was gonna be president. They didn't believe that there was a possibility that America did not want Trump, so they started to pray and use angels and spiritual warfare and things of that nature. So. You know, it can get a little weird.
Candice Schutter:Well, since Lance came up. We see, you know, I'm just going to plant the seed, because we're going to touch upon it a little bit later. But this document that's come out from The Heritage Foundation. It's known as Project 2025, that is basically a 920, I want to say, page document that's sort of laying out the plan for the new Republican president. And when I first learned about it, I had also simultaneously just learned about, from you, The Seven Mountain Mandate. And I'm like, holy shit. This is basically what Nikki was talking about, inked in black and white, ready to be delivered to Donald Trump's desk. So let's talk about The Seven Mountain Mandate. What is it? And share with the listeners what you shared with me.
Nikki G:Well, you know, what we've talked about so far is what NAR is. What it looks like in a NAR center, some of their beliefs. But I would say, the helm of their beliefs when you start to get into strategy. Remember I told you, the apostle, strategists, they move in strategy. And people might think, oh, that's someone that just goes to church. Oh, that's a ministry on the corner. They don't realize they've been doing strategy like this for decades, even before Trump came around. It's just they needed the right recipe, the right timing, the right person to actually push this through. So the The Seven Mountain Mandate, Lance Wallnau is the one that is mostly known for coining the phrase Seven Mountain. And its origins come from Dominion Theology and Christian Reconstruction. And so a lot of it is, you know, Christian Reconstructionism, a lot of belief is God is dominion. You know, he is supposed to be sovereign over this country. He's supposed to be sovereign and involved in the affairs of, you know, what happens in this country. Even with Christian nationalism, a lot of it comes from, you know, the reconstructionism. And so, with dominionism, which is hand in hand with Seven Mountains, they have four main principles. Number one, Jesus is calling Christians to create a society that is founded and predicated on God's laws according to the Bible. Okay. This is dominionism. Number two, the United States is God's chosen and elect agent. Number three, the US cannot fulfill the destiny of its sinful and fallen state. Meaning abortion is a law. There's no prayer in schools. Teachings about evolution and acceptance of homosexuality and same sex marriages. They feel like the U.S. cannot fulfill its destiny if these things are still the law of the land. And so number four, the selection of true Christian leadership is imperative order to expunge of these egregious sins. And so when Lance Wallnau created The Seven Mountains, he read a lot of the Dominion theology. And he said, wait a minute. I'm looking at the secular part of our country and how things are running. I'm seeing a lot of people in the secular arena, they're the ones running the show, in art and in government. Where is the church? Oh, the church is just sitting there just, you know, clapping their hands, and they're just so happy to have a 90 minute service and they go home and they live their lives. This is not enough. We need kingdom now. So Lance came up with this strategy and called it the The Seven Mountain Mandate. He is really, in essence, saying God is wanting those who have taken on the ideology that we have to govern. And he's basically has said, from a strategic standpoint, that prior to this NAR Seven Mountain Mandate, a lot of the Christians have been at the base of the mountain and the secular representatives have been at the top. So he said we got to flip it. And the Christians have to now get to the top of the mountain. And what does that mean to be at the top of the mountain? It means that the Christian ideology, this NAR ideology, has supreme influence over society. And basically what it is is, it is a way to start taking those who've been in the apostolic centers. Those who've been listening to the apostles and prophets. Those who look at the Bible more than just a book to live by, but a manifesto, a marching order, a militant book, those who are on that. Let's gather you and now we want to disperse you to seven spheres of influence. There are more than seven, but they highlighted seven specifically, or Lance did. The mountain or the sphere of religion. They consider it the mountain of God. But when they say religion, they don't mean all other organized religions. They mean they want Christianity at the apex of that mountain. The mountain of education. That, includes collegiate level, elementary level, down to daycare, to the school boards. They feel like, on the collegiate level, there are professors that are liberal, and they're teaching things that's messing up the young adults. And that's why they become liberal when they come out. We need to go to the top of that mountain and take authority. There's the mountain of family. And that, includes marriage. It includes sexuality. It includes racial issues. It includes how we deal with life and the family structure. It includes the court system. It includes relational dynamics in and of itself. They're saying, look, everything is running amok. We don't like the homosexual agenda. These are not my words, this is what they believe. To continue to, um, exist. And so we need to get to the top of the mountain so we can change that. So the mountain of business or finance. They believe that all of these people that are anti God and anti Christ and have all this money, at some point, God's going to empty their bank account and put it in the bank account of people that are doing this work. And I'm like, I wonder how that's gonna go.
Candice Schutter:Oh yeah. Okay.
Nikki G:They don't know what they're doing with it, and it's not using it for a godly purpose. So it would be better put in the hands of people who are on the top of the mountain. Then you have the mountain of government. And military is involved in that mountain. The three branches are involved in that mountain. It deals with the rules of law for this nation. It deals with the president. Well, that's the government mountain. Then you have the arts and entertainment mountain. And that can include sports, music, movies, you know, books, things of that nature that people are entertained. And then you have the mountain of media. And that is more about communication and radio and news. And they believe that, you know, God wants his people at the top of the news media mountain so that more media is coming out, more movies are coming out that are pro Christianity, pro traditional values. So they want to take over. If you didn't hear anything I just said.
Candice Schutter:Right.
Nikki G:They want to take over. They want to get into the movie houses. They want to take over in the books that are being produced. We're seeing this right now with critical race theory. We're seeing this in Florida with Governor DeSantis and wanting to, you know, take away certain books. And that, we're seeing that. And people like, why, why all the sudden are they doing this? This has been in the works. If it doesn't look like their agenda, doesn't sound like their agenda, then they're in the business of wiping it out and erasing it.
Candice Schutter:Mm-Hmm.
Nikki G:That is in a nutshell, the Seven Mountains. But I gave the example already. I'll do a new one for myself. Let's say I'm in an apostolic center and, you know, I have a strong passion for government. And I've got, you know, a covering somebody who's been walking with me or whatever and praying for me and saying, you know, Nikki, you got a call of God on your life. I can see you running as a politician. You know, have you ever thought about that? No, I didn't think about. Pray about it. Let's see what God says. I pray, even fast. And all of a sudden maybe one day in a service, you know, I start hearing God calling me, I think. I'm calling you into government. But what am I supposed to do in government? And I start thinking about it, and I you know connect with my spiritual parents. And, you know, and eventually I come to the place of, okay, I'm going to go back to school. I want to go to become, you know, a lobbyist. So I want to go, I want to go move to DC. I want to get involved in politics. Why? Because thy kingdom come, thy will be done in The White House. Right?
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Nikki G:In the White House. In all the different chambers of Congress. And you know in the Senate, in the House. And if we're gonna be at the apex of the mountain, you need people to go back to school. You need people to go and start running for office. That's why you start to see this influx, especially. They've been doing it before Trump. But once Trump came on the scene, everybody's coming in, and they're using the language. We want Christian values in our schools. And, and again, this is not, Jesus love me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. This is spiritual colonization. This is spiritual supremacy. This is Christian nationalism. Because they believe that society religiously is declining, that more people are not identifying as Christians anymore. And they believe that every fabric of America should be infused with their ideology. So much so that the bigger plan is not to stop at transforming America the way that I'm explaining. The bigger goal is to then export this as they have already been doing. This ideology, this perspective, this blueprint, they want to export it to the other countries of the world. And why? Because they feel like this is one of the highest forms of evangelism. Not just to evangelize one person to Christ. What does it look like to evangelize a whole nation over to Christ? What does that look like? And they believe, there's a scripture that says, until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So they're starting locally in towns. They're starting locally on the state level. They have certain states that they use as test states that will actually show a picture. And now that you've got Trump's people on the Supreme court, this is the real deal. These test States are trying to put these laws through, and then it gets put into the Supreme court's hand, and it's actually turning into law now.
Candice Schutter:Exactly.
Nikki G:Lance Wallnau has spoken at the UN. A lot of these leaders have spoken in other countries to kings and dignitaries about this type of model. Though America screams democracy, this is anti democracy and ultimately choice and freedom will be out the window if a lot of their agenda is established. And so much of it is already. We just don't know it yet.
Candice Schutter:Nikki and I continue our dialogue next week. You won't want to miss it. She's going to be walking us through more recent history and sharing more personally about her role back in the day. And why, now that she's awake to it all, she's devoting so much of her time and energy to exposing the movement's true aims. Here's a quick preview.
Nikki G:And The Call and Lou Engle was known for the symbol of silent intercession. And there was a red'life' tape that we would put over our mouth. Red tape and it had the word'life' on it. And we stood in front of the courthouse, and we silently interceded that God would overturn abortion and send revival to America the birthplace of it all. And so, to see things come full circle and actually happen. I'm going to be honest. Even though I'm a trauma coach. Even though I've been speaking out about spiritual abuse and all this stuff, it was jarring for me.
Candice Schutter:I bet.
Nikki G:You know, at first. Because when that happened, I said, well, wait a minute now. First of all, I felt guilty. The moral injury part of it. I felt like, oh my gosh, I took part in this happening, you know. You don't impose your will politically, spiritually on another person. You don't do that. And so when I started to see this whole pro-life movement through those lenses, I said, Oh my goodness. What did I do? You know, what was I a part of?
Candice Schutter:Thanks so much for tuning in and we hope to see you back here next week. Bye for now.
