The Deeper Pulse with Candice Schutter
Hi. I'm Candice Schutter. I started The Deeper Pulse podcast about a year into the pandemic when I was feeling lost and desperate for connection. I began with sharing personal stories, striving to make sense of life and my own stilted self-expression. In the process, I encountered some spiritual wounds and dove headfirst into the world of cult recovery, discovering that - not only did it hold the key to a door that I’d been banging on since I was a child - it may even offer us a way out of the royal mess we're making of this whole being human thing. On TDP, my guests and I talk about the everyday labor of self-expression, unpack what puts the 'cult' culture, and brave sweaty-palm truths to restore collective agency and self-dominion.
If you're new to the pod, Ep.1-17 are all about recovering from feelings of stuckness. And if you're recovering from a high-demand relationship, workplace, wellness 'cult'ure, and/or just generally feeling passionate around issues of social justice - check out episodes 32+.
The Deeper Pulse with Candice Schutter
#70 - The Cult of Gender: A Panel Discussion w/ Former 'Org' Affiliates | Maxx Boyd, Troy McCall, & Lainie Magidsohn
This week’s ‘cult’ure series release is a very special rollover from the Patreon-exclusive deconstructing dogma bonus series. Three former ‘Org’ affiliates join Candice for a panel discussion examining wellness-cult dynamics through the intersectional lens of gender and sexuality. Together they explore how mainstream socialization around the heteronormative gender binary is very often reinforced in spirituality and wellness spaces. In this conversation, LGBTQ+ perspectives are centered as guests share about their personal & professional experiences. Lainie invites us to look closely at language, and at how terms like 'masculine' & 'feminine' reinforce problematic stereotypes; and she shares briefly about her experience on the Org’s short-lived DEI Counsel. Troy initiates a discussion about why the Org's clothing line was/is so problematic and opens up about how an unwillingness to 'dress the part' - both literally and interpersonally - can limit professional advancement. Maxx speaks to how pressures around gender expression started way back in childhood and were reinforced in wellness spaces; and he celebrates younger generations who are providing to language for his long-lived life experiences. We chat about how capitalism factors into systemic reinforcement of the gender binary and then share some full-belly laughs during a lively (and very revealing) discussion about homoerotic energy on the dance floor. What's that about really? This is an episode not to be missed.
Maxx Boyd is non binary, trans masculine, happily married, and a longtime friend. He was involved with the Org for roughly a decade, subbing for the Org's founders, while also teaching ongoing classes throughout the Portland metro area. Maxx still leads dance fitness classes and has since allowed their own teaching to evolve into something unique and self-defined. Maxx is also a non practicing LMT and part time customer service manager. But he spends most of his days lovingly looking after an active and playful toddler.
Troy McCall licensed with the Org in 2001 and was a devoted teacher and student for many years, teaching in a variety of locations worldwide. T separated from the practice in 2011 and is now a soccer player and coach in Boulder, Colorado. Troy also dances and performs with Streetside Dance and with NewBreed Dance Company and is studying Sport Analytics and Management at American University. T holds multiple master's degrees in Contemporary Performance, Buddhist Studies, and Soccer Coaching.
Lainie Magidsohn is queer, polyamorous, and a lifelong dancer and mover. She's a choreographer, collaborator, improviser, and teacher who is passionate about creating a safe space for movers of all ages, abilities, bodies, and genders to engage with their own unique dance. Lainie was involved with the Org for two decades and was also a part of the Org's short-lived Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Council, that was formed in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder and was disbanded less than two years later. Lainie is also a parent, a wedding officiant, a life drawing model, and an instructor with Dancing with Parkinsons in Toronto and across Canada online.
The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.
Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates.
Hi, welcome to another episode of The Deeper Pulse. We've only got a few weeks left in the'cult'ure series. And if you've been enjoying this work, and you'd like to go even deeper, just a quick reminder about the Deconstructing Dogma Supplemental Bonus Series that's available exclusively over on Patreon. There are currently 40 plus bonus conversations streaming in both video and audio format. And once you become a patron of The Deeper Pulse podcast, you get immediate and unlimited access to all of these extras. You can learn more and explore a seven day free trial at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. And it just so happens that today I'll be sharing a deconstructing dogma bonus conversation right here on the main feed. Because it feels like a very timely and important follow up to last week's episode which focused on the unique experience that marginalized folks face in culty environments and in everyday life. So let's get right to it, shall we? Once again, aliases are used in the sharing of these stories and the opinions shared here are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization. It was a few years ago, pre pandemic, when I was at a beachside yoga retreat chatting with a longtime friend and colleague. We were lying near the water during a break between sessions and, as it often goes in these sorts of deep dive wellness environments, we'd long since skipped over the small talk and we were opening up, sharing intimately about our personal lives. Now I can't recall exactly what inspired me to do so, I think it somehow related to the workshop content of the day. But in the moment, I chose to share, very vaguely, that for some time, on and off, I had been having erotic dreams. And that my same sex attraction had been surging in recent years. And I still remember how it felt in my body, as she visibly cringed and shook her head in disgust. It was a really awkward moment. I was unable to hide the fact that her response had been hurtful, and she caught on real quick and struggled to shake off her discomfort and set her face right around it all. And when I look back on this experience, I'm a little embarrassed to say that my reflex in the moment was to take care of her feelings. And I guess in some way, to protect myself from further harm, I ended up saying something like, oh well, these dreams that I've been having, it's probably nothing. It's just me getting in touch with my feminine. Part of me has compassion toward my friend who in the moment just really didn't know her audience. She knew very little about my past. Had only really gotten to know me now that I was in a committed, monogamous, heteronormative relationship. And so she defaulted to a reaction that really isn't all that uncommon among her heterocentric peer group. Now of course it should go without saying that this homophobic microaggression, it pales in comparison to the experience that so many endure on a daily basis. But I thought it was a story worth sharing, because these unspoken biases are so damn common. And it's a relatively benign example of how any one of us can be marginalized for our socially divergent desires and preferences. It's been my experience, both as a participant and as a facilitator, that conventional gender roles are very often cleverly laundered and reinforced in wellness circles. And it's added a sense of confusion to my own gender and sexual expression over the years. Growing up, I identified as heterosexual, mostly by default. And because I was attracted to some of the younger boys in my classes. Now looking back, I had girl crushes, too. In fact, my first sexual experience was with a neighbor girl, who very soon after our physical encounter, I shamefully ignored. I was far too invested in my good girl self image to engage in anything other than cosplay around my slowly emerging queer identity. It wasn't until early adulthood that I consciously discovered I was attracted to all sorts of humans, based not on their gender identity or genitalia, but based on who they are as people. Which might not have been as confusing if inquiring minds hadn't constantly wanted to know. But what are you? Are you, are you lesbian? Bisexual? Straight and experimenting? Honestly, I didn't fucking know. I just loved who I loved. It was as simple as that. And since none of the available labels seemed to fit, I just sort of shied away from them entirely. As I said, I'm in a long term, heteronormative relationship, so I have the privilege of sidestepping labels. And of existing in relative safety, because I am no longer being questioned around my sexual identity. Although I do regularly field invasive questions around our choice not to marry. Eleven years and no ring? What's that about? I think we humans need labels, because we just love to make up stories. So I share all of this to make a point, which is that culture is inherently culty, because we have these shorthand ways of cult categorizing each other. Are you a man or a woman? Single or married? Straight or gay? Wealthy or unemployed? Do you own your house or do you rent? Do you drink beer or chardonnay? Do you live in a red state or a blue state? On and on the list goes. And for the most part, it's either or, this or that. Gray areas be damned, tell me to which groups you belong so that I know right away how I should treat you. This might sound really cynical, but social hierarchies are kind of reflexive. And so the intention of today's episode is to expose a few of these binary biases in the hopes of liberating all of us from social dictates that place inhumane limits on our personal sense of agency. And I also want to take a minute to really note here that labels aren't necessarily a bad thing. They can be liberating, lifesaving even, when they are mutable and self-defined. But when we're forced to wear labels that don't suit us, or when the labels we're being implicitly assigned feel outdated or oppressive in some way, why can't it be that we're given the option to choose our own label? One that better suits us. Or even ditching the labels altogether. This episode isn't about mandating or doing away with labels. It's about choice. There are many who roll their eyes at the growing list of gender identities and sexual orientations that younger generations are continually rolling out. LGBTQIA2S, the list goes on, with more being added every day. And why is this? Now I can't speak for anyone else, but from where I sit, it seems pretty clear that these new generations are inventing this endless string of labels in an effort to break free from the cult of gender. And listen, if the gender binary works for you, great! If you find belonging, comfort, and support in traditional gender roles, no one is trying to take that away from you. You do you. Ditching overarching labels doesn't mean that those labels don't apply some of the time. But to assume that everyone is destined to live as you do, not only is this myopic and short sighted. It's textbook cult mentality. Back in March 2022, long before the'cult'ure series began, in episode 25, I sat down with my beloved friend, Rachel Kaufman. She generously shared her story with us, touching upon what it's like living as a trans woman during a time of unprecedented political backlash. And she shared with me, very candidly, how us cisgender folks often do unintentional harm by denying her existence, or treating her, as a trans woman, differently. These types of conversations, that challenge the cult of gender, are so important. And they require us to defy our social conditioning, to no longer reflexively marginalize people who don't conform to categorical standards. And perhaps more importantly, to no longer presume to understand people who may experience the world and their bodies very differently than we do. One of the things that makes the cult mindset so maddening is that sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Is that how the saying goes? Whatever it is. Why can't we humans just allow others to live as they want to live, to love who they want to love? Why is that person over there arguing with red-faced fury that there are two biological sexes and that is all end of discussion? Why are Florida lawmakers passing one law after another after another discriminating against and endangering the lives of children, challenging the very right of LGBTQ+ folks to exist. Well, as we established very early on in this series, cognitive dissonance is a bitch, and it's super common when we defy culty norms. Understanding cult dynamics can be very helpful. But it's so much more than an intellectual exercise. Because debating labels and or the existence of folks whose actual lived experience is being questioned on a daily basis, this itself is harmful and dehumanizing rhetoric. Part of stepping outside of the cult mindset is understanding that we don't have to personally be able to relate to an experience in order to offer empathy and understanding. So I guess what I'm saying is, when people tell us who they are, how about we just believe them? Okay, my personal rant has gone on long enough, so now for a quick lead in to today's episode. Episodes 60 61 are two of this pod's most downloaded episodes to date. And I'm so happy to report that Mark Frossard has since become a dear friend of mine. It was back in July when Mark sat down for an interview to share about the years he spent as part of the Org and the unique challenges he faced in his local community in being one of very few men in the practice. Now these two episodes speak for themselves, so again, please circle back if you haven't yet heard them. To summarize, Mark did his best to kick against the femme centric current at the Org, even creating events that were more inclusive toward the men of the practice... to his local community, creating spaces where conversations around gender fluidity and inclusion could safely take place. But his devotion was cut short by the Org's unsavory business practices, resulting in betrayal, the loss of livelihood, and a ruptured sense of belonging. And I mention Mark here, because it really was his courage that laid the foundation for the conversation you're about to hear. I recently sat down with three other former Org affiliates to expand and deepen on what has become an ongoing discussion in our recovery group around gender norms in wellness culture and beyond. Allow me to introduce you to today's guests. Maxx Boyd is non binary, trans masculine, happily married, and a longtime friend. He was involved with the Org for roughly a decade, subbing for the Org's founders, while also teaching ongoing classes throughout the Portland metro area. Maxx still leads dance fitness classes and has allowed their own teaching to evolve into something unique and self-defined. Maxx is also a non practicing LMT and part time customer service manager, but he spends most of his days lovingly looking after an active and playful toddler. Troy McCall and I have a shared history that we'll both briefly touch upon during this conversation. Troy licensed with the Org in 2001 and was a devoted teacher and student for many years, teaching in a variety of locations worldwide. T separated from the practice in 2011 and is now a soccer player and coach in Boulder, Colorado. Troy also dances and performs with Streetside Dance and with New Breed Dance Company and is studying Sport Analytics and Management at American University. T holds multiple master's degrees in Contemporary Performance, Buddhist Studies, and Soccer Coaching. Lainie Magidsohn is queer, polyamorous, and a lifelong dancer and mover. She's a choreographer, collaborator, improviser, and teacher who is passionate about creating a safe space for movers of all ages, abilities, bodies, and genders to engage with their own unique dance. Lainie was involved with the Org for two decades and was also a part of the Org's short-lived Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Council, that was formed in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder and was disbanded less than two years later. Lainie is also a parent, a wedding officiant, a life drawing model, and an instructor with Dancing with Parkinsons in Toronto and across Canada online. Now as you will soon learn, each of us come to this conversation having had very different experiences. But we were all taught a common language that we've since come together to deconstruct. We're not here to provide answers so much as to ask better questions. And so, I hope that you enjoy this panel discussion on the cult of gender. Hello, Everybody. Welcome to Patreon and another episode of Deconstructing Dogma. This is an extra special episode. It's one of our first, sort of panels, so to speak, and I'm super excited to welcome our guests today. Troy, Maxx, and Lainie are all here to sit with me and share experiences around gender. Specifically, everyone here, and I'll allow everyone to introduce themselves in a moment, has experience in the mind-body fitness company that we refer to as'the Org' throughout the podcast. So we will be speaking about experiences there specifically. And also, these experiences aren't unique. And that they translate to lots of different kinds of environments, throughout wellness culture and throughout culture in general. So we're hoping that whether or not you involved with the Org, you'll definitely have some great takeaways from what's about to be shared today. So welcome, welcome you all. Thanks for being here. So would you each be willing to introduce yourself? Maybe tell us your name and a little bit perhaps about your history with the Org practice and why decided to show up here today. Who would like to start?
Maxx Boyd:I'll start us off.
Candice Schutter:Alright Maxx.
Maxx Boyd:Hello, I'm Maxx Boyd. Um, some you may know me by birth name. But, uh, I started taking Org classes in 1999. And, a long time ago. And, I live in Portland, Oregon. I'm still teaching, uh, something, that, uh, you know, it's, you know my version of that. I, you know, yeah, I have a two and a half year old now, so I'm mostly focused on that. But I still teach a couple classes a week. And I do live in Portland, Oregon, but I'm not really involved with the Org, entity, the business. But, you know, been around for a long time. Yeah. Did all my trainings, I did all of my trainings like up until 2005. So, I think I did like one other training in like 2009, um, that was kind of like sitting in on that. But I haven't really done any trainings or anything like that. I've just been kind of doing my own thing. But I've been teaching the same two classes at a community center that's like super accessible, like, you know, it's like five bucks or whatever for people to drop in. And, um, I've been teaching there like since I moved here, so like almost 15 now. So, yeah, it's crazy.
Candice Schutter:Wow, that's so cool.
Maxx Boyd:I've watched myself age in the same mirror.
Candice Schutter:Well, they're so lucky to have you, Maxx. I remember, uh, gosh, we would have met, like, were you there when I first started? It was around the same time. Yeah, back.
Maxx Boyd:I mean, I was, yeah. I did in 2004 I was here for a training. So I think I met you then. Yeah.
Candice Schutter:We go way back.
Maxx Boyd:But was coming. I was coming back and forth a lot here a lot. Yeah. I lived in Austin prior. So that's where I got started. I should say that. I got started in Austin, Texas.
Candice Schutter:All right.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah.
Candice Schutter:Well, I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for joining us.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah. Thank you. for inviting me. Yeah.
Candice Schutter:Absolutely.
Troy McCall:Hello. My name is Troy McCall. And I started taking classes with the Org in 1997 in Boulder, Colorado. And just continued. Around 2001 becoming certified. And then between 2001 and probably 2008, finishing, you know, a series of belts and auditing belts, so on and so forth. Um, most, most of my teaching has been in Boulder as well as Charlottesville, Virginia. And did quite a bit of traveling. We had a little stint of course, in Orange County. So primarily in Boulder, but I also did a lot of subbing you know, throughout the world actually. Um, teachers traveling and or going to Italy for a week or something and, and teaching at a spa there. So quite a bit of experience in a lot of different environments and traveling a lot to different communities. So really got to see quite a bit of what was happening and going on and participating and teaching. And I stopped teaching in 2011 and, at that time was finished and did not renew my license. Um, and so. Of course I dance every day. But I do not teach anymore. So, that's my experience.
Candice Schutter:Well, Troy and I just, I'm sharing all this just to, kind of, contextualize those of you who've been listening throughout the series. If you listened to episode 33, I talk about moving to Orange County. Troy and I moved to Orange County together to, to seed the Org in Orange County. And had that, that whole wild and wacky experience just prior to when I went to HQ. uh So we go way, way back and I just have to say when it comes to conversations around gender and these topics, some of the most insightful discussions I've ever had have been with you, Troy. So I'm just really, yeah, delighted that you're here with us today. Thank you.
Troy McCall:Great to be
Lainie Magidsohn:Thank you. My name is Lainie Magidson. I am in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. So, I'm the foreigner. Um, and that has actually worked really well for me for a long time. There was something quite... easy about being physically separate from the US and, the US generally and from Portland specifically. We were just kind of up here having our lovely little community doing our own thing and not really paying a lot of attention. At least I wasn't paying a lot of attention to what was going on in Portland, um, of course, until the world went online and we all got really connected. Um, so. So yeah, that's sort of when I really started getting a lot more insight into what, what was going on. And so I, I started practicing in 2001. Um, I did my first training in 2003. And I taught for 20 years. And, um, during the pandemic, I became part of the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Council, um, which a profound and wonderful experience. And also, gave me a massive amount of insight into just how bad things were. Um, And so uh, that council was summarily disbanded. Um, And I decided to cancel my license. almost exactly a year ago, a little little less than a year ago. Um, I continue to teach and dance and move in all sorts of other ways. But just not with that name. not be She who, she who shall not be named.
Candice Schutter:Yeah. Well, I'm really. Um, yeah, she. I know I was
Maxx Boyd:She, she who shall not be named.
Candice Schutter:There's a great, there's a great lead in, right?
Lainie Magidsohn:That was intentional.
Candice Schutter:Yep. Um, we'll go there folks. Don't you worry. Um, Lainie, I'm, it's been really great connecting with you. We just connected really recently and, uh, had just a wonderful conversation around all of this as a precursor to this conversation and I just, I'm thrilled that we got your sound to work. Everyone out there, we were having some tech issues, but we got it to work, um, because I, I just know you're going to bring so much to this conversation. And I really appreciate it. I just want to underscore the fact that you Thank you. had the experience you did, which was very different than the experience that Maxx and Troy and I had way back in the day. I mean, you've been around since back in the day as well. And that you had that sense of separation being in Canada. And that you have been around through these more recent iterations of things, which one of the things I've heard recently, sort of in defense of the Org is'oh, this is like old news. This is all things that happened a really long time ago It's no longer a problem.' and so for you to be able to talk about how you really had your Waking up to all of this in a more recent years is I think really helpful as well. True. True
Lainie Magidsohn:That is true; however, I will also add, my separation. Um, that that wasn't that was intentional, my separation and that I didn't feel a massive amount of trust or connection from the very beginning. Which is a really interesting thing, you know, in, in terms of your conversation about cultiness. And I'm a pretty intuitive person. Like, I knew what I was sensing. Um, and I made a conscious decision to ignore it because I wanted to practice the practice.
Candice Schutter:That tracks.
Lainie Magidsohn:the And so it wasn't until the last, you know, the last, I guess, three years that I was like, yeah, I can't ignore this any longer.
Candice Schutter:Right.
Lainie Magidsohn:I kind of wanted to add that in there as well. It was, it, I, I, I chose to look the other way for a lot of time. And that's, um, that's something that I sit with.
Candice Schutter:So when it comes to this conversation, I know each of you are coming to it having had very unique and different experiences in the Org. Would one of you or all of you be willing to speak to why you feel that this conversation needs to happen as a part of this deconstruction. Why is this important?
Troy McCall:Well, I mean, I think I'll just go ahead and jump into something. Um, I think it, I believe it's important really actually as, as sort of the act of like turning the mirror towards. Whether one is a part of the Org now, in the future, or in the past. I think that the demographic of the Org, and who becomes attracted to it tends to be a woman of the, you know, someone of either being a female or sort of having a very feminine expression. And typically tends to be, you know, because the work of the Org I think blurs these lines between sort of a spirituality and a fitness. So somebody who's sort of like able to live in those blurred lines. And it, it just happens to be a very, very, I think that the population is predominantly female and female identified individuals. And you know, that there is a set of norms that isn't spoken out loud. So I think that there's a set of norms like underneath. That one, you know, can notice the second walking into a room of participants in a class, for example, and notice, um, clothing, skin color and sort of expression, gender expression. And so I think it's just like, part of this is like just naming that this attracts a certain vibration. And from the very beginning sort of sets a tone. And it's not, it's not that other isn't necessarily welcomed. Um, I don't wanna, sort of, say there's this immediate victimization, or it's only these people who are, who are allowed in. But that if we turn the mirror and we look at not only the class, but we also look at the, um, photography and all the imagery that we'll see something very similar. If I go to a dance class, for example, in my community, everyone is by far not having a dress code, whether spoken or unspoken. And I think that that the expression that's there from one's body through the clothing a very large part of this practice.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah, I mean, it's about the look, you know. And I think it's like, there's like this like, oh, you know, welcoming of everything and welcoming of all bodies and all of that stuff. But, and I mean, this isn't really about what I'm saying about gender necessarily, but it's also, you know, just about like, oh, but it needs to look this certain way. It has to look the certain way. Which is all based on the same shit that we think that everything has to look like, you know, it's like, tall, skinny, white. You know. Right? Yeah.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:And I think, for me, the reason that I wanted to be here is because I actually fit that. I'm a tall, skinny, white, cis, femme woman of a certain age. In 90 percent of my identities, I fit that class. I'm also queer, so that's where I didn't fit. And that's where a lot of my own insight comes from. But the reason that this is also important to me, and I know that, you know, the, the sort of, the invitation was put out to, I think, for a panel of, you know, gender minorities in the Org.
Candice Schutter:Absolutely.
Lainie Magidsohn:Which is absolutely vital. But what I also want to add into the conversation is that this actually hurts all of us. norms Right. That the, the gender norms and assumptions and languaging and putting in a box even hurts all of us who fit the box, right?
Candice Schutter:Right.
Lainie Magidsohn:And that, you there's there's nobody winning from this, and I feel like there's just so much space to learn and to open up those categories. And the thing, of course, that I found most painful in the context of the Org is that there was no room for conversation. I brought these subjects up repeatedly with HQ, with different trainers, and it was shut down every time. It's just, we don't, we don't discuss things. We don't, you know, there's no room for multiple viewpoints, um, and so I, uh, I welcome the opportunity to share multiple viewpoints.
Candice Schutter:Yeah. Exactly.
Troy McCall:So, Lainie, I'm, I'm curious what you were bringing that they were so quick to sort of shut down. I'm just curious sort of what that was like. Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:Yeah, Yeah, but I think the biggest one for me that, again, conversations I've tried to have several times. was simply around language and, you know, we, we talk in the Org about impeccability of our, our speech, right? And to me, using words like masculine and feminine, which is used in the Org and which is used in all sorts of other modalities and healing practices and whatever. Is flawed. Is massively flawed. Um, when we use words like masculine and feminine as a shorthand, we're making an assumption here. There's another one. We're making an assumption that everybody understands and right agrees about what that means, right? trainer, So the whomever is when your teacher trainer, whomever is standing in front of your class and say, you know, talking about our, our feminine movements. That we all agree that that blah, blah, blah.
Candice Schutter:Mmhm.
Lainie Magidsohn:blah, Now, there is nothing wrong with soft, yielding, gentle movements, but call it that. Right? is not isn't, gendered. That to me, That's not gendered. Those are just soft movements. Like, have fun with soft movements. Or obviously, conversely, you know, when we get into our punches, we're going to be very, very masculine. No, we're not. I'm still my femme self, and I'm going to punch the crap out of this. Right? Like, I don't want those things associated with gender. Because it doesn't fit for everybody. It sets us up, you know. Like, and to be fair, like, these were all And I certainly heard growing get. Right? And so, just while all personal about it, you know, it took me quite a while to come out as lesbian initially. I was already into my 30s. I already had a couple was I was, you know. And part of that learned was because I had learned that you know, lesbian meant something very specific, and it wasn't feminine. But I was feminine, so I couldn't be lesbian. Like, it was you know, like, language of gender fucked me up. me up. That language of gender fucked me up. And caused me to take a hell of a lot longer to figure out who I was. I had to change.
Maxx Boyd:Same here.
Lainie Magidsohn:Right? There you go.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah. I mean, in my own way, right? Totally different. But yes, totally. Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:Yeah.
Maxx Boyd:And not having the language, you know. And it's like some of this stuff, it's like, in 1999 when, you know, Raul was demonstrating, you know, this like blend of masculine and feminine and whatever, you know, that was a thing then. But then like, everyone's changed since then. We've all evolved and changed. And even that was even problematic then. And you know, we see that now, like, and so I just feel like, yeah, it's, it's really interesting. And it's really interesting just, you know, I'm also curious like Troy, about your perspective of like the more recent stuff. You know, because I can remember Troy and I talking about some of this kind of stuff, a very different version of it, in, you know, the early two thousands, you know, and just talking about that kind of thing. And there wasn't any language for that then, at that point, you know, for me, even just outside of, of the practice, you know. Um, and I have to thank all of these wonderful young people today that have helped educate me and like, figure out my stuff. And like figure out how to say words for things that I didn't have when I was a kid, or, you know. So, I think that's a big part of it, too.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Troy McCall:Yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a trip to actually have these conversations, you know, in retrospect and knowing it's also so, so present now. I mean, when I came to the Org, there's an aspect of me that's the exact same today, which is I am just me, you know. Y'all could have the flowy and the this and the that. I, and I got my shorts. I got my board shorts and my t-shirt. And so, I'm sorry. I'm a little on the clothing thing today. I've, it's so embedded into the practice. And it represents so much to me. It represents so much. And I'll go a little deeper into that, which is that. It's like I gotta have my capoeira pants, okay. I got my capoeira pants. You guys have your flowy pants. I got my t-shirt. You guys have your little tight stuff. I can't move when I feel like a sausage. I, I just can't. It hurts my back. It, it hurts everything. I feel like I am in drag if I put those clothes on. So I'm gonna do me. And whether or not this is true or not true, what I realize in retrospect though, is that I do feel it affected my growth in the Org in terms of being chosen for things such as certain trainings and getting the little things in the mail to be included in this or that. And I poured every ounce of my being into this practice for about six or seven years. I'm talking everything. And it became very clear to me that I wasn't going anywhere. And I wasn't gonna be the one who was asked to be standing up there in the certain class or the certain this or that. And that's where I feel like, you know, what happened to that sort of platform where one can grow because they show, they show their level of commitment. And to me it wasn't about that. It was about do you look the part? Do you have the right personality? You know, do you, do you play the game well enough?.And, and for at one point I wasn't invited to something. And I talked to Marissa about it, and Marissa's response was, you've got your own thing going on. But in my heart, I had the Org going on. That's what I had going on, was the Org at that time. Whether or not in the long, long picture of things, because we did have a, a pretty decent relationship, I thought. Marissa could have been saying something that was very true that Marissa saw or whatever. However, I had a ceiling. And I think it was because it, you know, go ahead and do all the movements. Go ahead and embody masculine and feminine."Masculine and feminine." Go ahead and embody them. But if you don't look the part, forget it. You're not, you're not gonna move. You're not gonna go anywhere. And I feel like if you're in a body and you're embodying that exact line, despite half the principles being about embodying that line, if you embody it though, but don't wear the clothes, forget it. You're not going anywhere.
Candice Schutter:Mm hmm. hmm.
Maxx Boyd:Well, and it's like this message of like, look this certain way as you present this thing, that's oh, but it's, that's for everybody. It's for everybody. And we want all of these other people to come. But you, you know? Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:I think it's great that you're talking. You said, oh, we keep going on about the clothes. You know, you said, Troy, as if it was like, not a significant thing, but it's massively significant.
Candice Schutter:It is.
Maxx Boyd:Huge.
Lainie Magidsohn:It's right? And, and it applies. It's huge. It applies to gender, but it also applies to, again, even the feminine presenting folks who supposedly the clothes were designed for, except it actually wasn't designed for anybody with bigger bodies. And, and again, you know, oh, it's your body's way. We're all welcome as well. Except no. pants big Right? Except we don't actually make pants big enough for your butt, and if you complain about that, we're shutting you down. And I know people to whom that has happened, over the years. So, you know. I think that was it too, is just the sheer hypocrisy of it.
Candice Schutter:Yes.
Lainie Magidsohn:You know? Be sincere and say, you know what? Sorry, we're only making clothes for tall skinny white gals. Like, whatever. And then fine, I will walk somewhere else. But it was the hypocrisy of, this is for everybody, but not really.
Candice Schutter:Right. The gaslighting, the gaslighting. And I just want to speak on the heels of Troy's share, given the history that we share and our relationship. That I can speak from personal experience and say there was absolutely a double standard in the way that I was treated and the way that Troy was treated. I'm 100 percent comfortable saying that. And the opportunities that I was given that Troy was not given. Troy being a veteran mover of many years prior to when I started doing the Org practice and having a skill set that exceeded mine, for sure. That was something that I witnessed in our business partnership, because we did have a business together. We co taught, and we had a relationship with HQ, before I moved to HQ. And it was very clear that I was being chosen in a way that Troy was not. And it pains me to say that, but I just want to be honest about that. And in the, in the community that we were a part of prior to that as well. There was, there was definitely some of that. So it's, I want to say that because I think it's important. Because there's such a tendency to gaslight and victim shame. And say like, Oh, the thing you're saying is a thing isn't really a thing. And I just want to say, it's a real thing. And I saw it the perspective of somebody who was in the privileged position watching it play out. So I name that. Yeah. So Maxx, I'm curious to hear from you about the clothing thing. I actually had that curiosity, if I'm being honest, like way back in the day when we worked together, how that was for you.
Maxx Boyd:I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, interesting like, you know, when I think about like, the very first time I took an Org class, you know. I came in with my, as my friends would call them longs, you know, and it's like oversized, like long shorts. I would wear like baggy XL t-shirts. Like a size small is the appropriate size for me generally from that, you know, normal category of sizes for that. I mean, um, and so it just, yeah. And then of course there was some element of me, like hiding myself with all of that. So there was some element of me, like, you know, coming out in that regard. And I also like, I started taking Org classes, shortly after I came out as gay or lesbian or whatever we wanna call that, that point in my life. And so, um, yeah. So it was just part of that, that process. But then there was this encouragement of like, well, you know, try expressing a little bit of like this feminine thing. And so I thought like I could try that too. Like I could be like, oh, I can try this and I can try that. And so it was sort of like some of my experiences growing up. But the reality was that it was just another way of me being told that I wasn't like, Girling it, right? Like, I'm not being a girl enough, you know. Or you're not being the, you know, or if you just girled better, then you would feel like a girl. It was that kind of thing. And then it was like, oh, and then, then there's the clothes, right? And then there's like, well, if you're gonna wear these clothes, they, they're all feminine. The, you know, men's pants, whatever, you know, it's all tight, you know? The thing that goes along with that. And then, again, for me, I grew up my whole, I mean, I had to wear dresses on Easter as a kid. So it was just like, you know, it was just kind of another variation of that. And, you know, it took me a long time to realize that, like, and again, I have to thank younger kids and, you know, the, the times have changed. But to be able to kind of come to some more understandings about myself. Because, you know, I, yeah, I mean I just didn't have the language for it. I didn't really understand. I didn't know. I didn't have someone that I could relate to, you know. And every other person that I saw in class, you know, that like, maybe had like short hair or like, you know, looked like, you know, whatever. They were all married, you know, to men. And it was just like one of those things. So it was like, I never, you know. I mean, I remember, you know, talking to you Troy, and just being like, oh, there's, there's, there's one. You one other person. You know, and like Yeah. So, you know, it was, it was, yeah. It was definitely a thing. And there was a feeling that I was not gonna be accepted unless I at least tried to dress the part a little bit.
Candice Schutter:what Well, especially since you were subbing for Marissa and Raul. I mean that, stepping into that position at the studio and subbing for them, there really was a sense of emulate in order to succeed.
Maxx Boyd:Yep.
Lainie Magidsohn:You know what? Even though we've never met, Maxx, you were in videos in the early years, right? So you were my, oh, there's at least one. Because I clocked you in videos. And I was like okay, all right, if there's one on the videos, maybe, maybe it's okay. Like, maybe there's space for know here amongst all these straight chicks. Like, I don't know.
Maxx Boyd:Mm-hmm.
Lainie Magidsohn:So thanks. Thanks thanks for that.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah. Well, and I mean, you know, I was, I mean, you know, no, no secret. You know, I was definitely like Raul's student. That was, you know, my real draw, you know,. Um, yeah. And so just, I know that there was a way that I was kind of like accepted while he was around, because I was a good sub for him, right. The people liked me, you know, I taught kind of like him. I taught like his kind of stuff, you know. I have more of a boyish energy than these other ladies, you know, or whatever. And it just was really clear, uh, that, how that was connected to that. And then when, you know, Raul was removed from the equation, it felt really, really different. Yeah.
Candice Schutter:Would you be willing to say a little more about that?
Maxx Boyd:Um, yeah, it just felt like, I mean, it was just that, that like, I feel like there's been a process of kind of erasing. There was like this beginning of trying to erase. But there's not a hundred percent erasing, you know, of Raul happening either. Because it's also like when it serves them to say this is our 40 year anniversary or whatever, like, then there's stuff, you know what I mean? So, I feel like yeah. But there was definitely, you know, at that time when Raul was exiting, you know, that was when Marissa was getting super into all of this, like embracing the feminine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, and I mean, I even had a conversation with Marissa where I was like, no. I do not need to get more in touch with my feminine spirit. Like that is not what needs to happen and you don't understand me. You don't get it. And I mean, I didn't obviously stand up like for myself in that regard. But that was essentially what I was, you know, was, was wanting to convey. And so, you know, I do feel like, I feel like there was that shift that like 2010, you know, the exit. And then it was just like, okay, we're gonna, it just all is like much more feminine, feminine, feminine, feminine, and like just more of that, you know? So, I dunno.
Candice Schutter:Interesting, these labels of masculine and feminine, I feel similar to you, Lainie, like can we just not, like.
Maxx Boyd:I know, and I'm using those words, too
Candice:and
Candice Schutter:It's so, but so a part of our, it's just like you were saying, Max, about these new generations giving us new language. We need new language in order to replace the language that we use, right? So it becomes a little complex and those grooves are well worn, I get that. And it does. It's shorthand. It is a shortcut to communicating something that would take us longer to say. And also, I, what I think is so, I always found so fascinating about the use of that language. I think even before I was, my eyes were really open to all of this. The thing that was always confusing to me was that, you know, Raul was supposed to be the masculine. And Marissa was supposed to be the feminine. And my experience of them intimately in relationship was like, the flip. So I was just like, these labels don't really mean anything. It was just so like in my face having a relationship with both of them. And, and when I say that in terms of the flip, I mean the toxic masculinity that I experienced the most working at the Org was from Marissa and definitely Seth. Um, And.
Maxx Boyd:Well, you obedience.
Candice Schutter:Yeah, control. Yeah, obedience, control, all of that. The power-over dynamics, all of that.
Maxx Boyd:And that stuff, too. Like just, I feel like, you know, I felt that more and more, you know, after the departure of Raul for sure. I mean, I would never have admitted that then, or noticed it really then, but I can see it now.
Candice Schutter:Mm hmm.
Troy McCall:I was gonna circle back around with, with Lainie's comment around these words. And I think that the Org attempted to provide a vocabulary which was going to support the use of those words. Unfortunately the Org is a microcosm of this larger experience, at least here in the United States, and I imagine in Canada that, you know, being part of a society and, and using these words, I don't think there is a general agreement. And the words themselves being a representation, like you said, a shorthand for something of, of that is a process and that is moving all the time. And so being in one moment that one might consider maybe a quieter, a passive, or a more horizontal space of being into the next motion of being in a directional motion or being in a directional tone of voice or being in a directional space of accomplishment back into having to be in a conversation of being in a receptive place, back into, I mean, these, these things are changing from moment to moment. Um, and so I don't assume that in any way are we going to solve this issue, whether we're talking about whether it's in the Org and or as a representation of a larger piece. So I think it names something that is an ongoing conversation of how we use language. And I think what's very interesting here is that not only were and is the Org presenting language. It is a bodily practice. It is a practice of the body. And I think that, you know, is also something to really take into consideration here. That the, the movement of the body, having these different textures, there's something very beautiful about that. I think that's what originally was, is just so wonderful to be able to move that way and move freely. Um, I'm not in any way, you know, here to just sort of like Org bash about everything. I, I think that there could be an extension of awareness though with the translation of those practices into life. Especially when, when we are talking about of the previous, content, for example, number 60 and 61. That it's not only how we move it is how we relate to each other. You know.
Candice Schutter:Yes, yes.
Troy McCall:That's really just all.
Candice Schutter:you bringing Mark's presence to this just to underscore to underscore for everyone out that Mark really laid the foundation for this Thank you, Troy.
Maxx Boyd:You know, and one thing that I thought that was like so eyeopening about hearing Mark's story was just like, like he's a dude. And to hear like how othered he was for that, you know. And then, you know, and it's like, you know, yeah, wear these like tight pants, but then like, don't let us, you know, don't let us see your body too much, because that might not make everybody comfortable. And it's like ridiculous, you know? And,
Candice Schutter:Lainie.
Lainie Magidsohn:Sorry, Troy, that something that you said just sort of twigged a flashback to what we were talking about yesterday, Candice. This feels... Like, I want to bring in the bigger picture about, sort of, what I, what you called the, you know, since this is cult, cultiness, right, sort of beyond the Org, just the cult of gender, right? The ways in which we are all socialized to understand who we're supposed to be, what kind of gender we're supposed to inhabit, based on what kind of genitals we happen to land in the world with, and all the many million myriad ways that that is reinforced every minute of every day. So in many ways to me, there's nothing special about the Org in this respect. They're not doing anything that most of the rest of the world isn't doing. I left because I was disappointed that they're not challenging it and that they're not willing to listen, right? I don't want to be part of organizations anymore that aren't willing to at least have those conversations with me and with whomever else, right?
Maxx Boyd:Yeah, You're right. It's the same, you know, this is the same as everyone else. Yet we, we would hope that, that it would be better, but it's not. So it's disappointing. But then again, it's interesting how some of this stuff coming to light, also, and this is like the cult thing. Which is where, you know, I'm thinking about these things and then I'm slowly remembering other things that I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. You know? And all these things that I just completely overlooked or like, you know, just, yeah, like, I'm just gonna, like, that's weird, but just gonna put this in the weird file and just let it stay there, you know? And like, oh, you know, I don't like this. It's really weird, but I'm just. Or there's the weird file, but then there's like the incongruent file. You know, it's like, you know, the incongruent file. It's like, you know, oh, you're saying the body's way, but then this is not the body's way. You know? Like what, you know? Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:Yes, so we're all part of this, this cult of gender. But what I wanted to say is, it's so important and it feels like it's no coincidence that we're having this conversation right now at a moment where transphobia is coming back with a vengeance, is right? Where transphobic legislation is coming down, and protests, and violence. And all of that is part of this conversation. As soon as we start to make steps, that pushback comes back even harder, right? And Maxx, you know, you're talking about all these... Amazing, gorgeous young folks who are teaching us so much and they are, and they're dying. Because they're pushing back against the cult of gender. And that pushback is just, it's dangerous. I'm terrified, frankly. The timing feels a significant to me.
Candice Schutter:It is. It absolutely It is. Absolutely.
Lainie Magidsohn:It's a scary, it's a scary, scary moment.
Candice Schutter:And I love, Lainie, that you just named it the cult of gender. Because that's exactly in line with the series and the whole purpose of it is really to be able to zoom all the way in so that we can zoom all the way out. In and out, in and out, in and out. Like that's what this conversation that we're having needs to do. Because it is, and I love also Troy that you named, like we're not here to Org bash. The reason we're talking about the org specifically is because it's an experience we have in common so we can talk about it. It's not because any of us are under any impression that this is, you know, it's a problem that exists only there. However, that specificity helps us to identify those larger themes that need to be discussed and that are applicable and urgently important to these larger conversations that are happening societally. And which really, since we're bringing all in just makes me want to circle back to your Introduction Lainie, and you talking about the DEI committee and how you know we could be having the same conversation about the cult of whiteness. And It's, It's, all, it's all connected, it's all part of the same like white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist knot that we're all attempting to untangle that's so tightly bound that it's a bit maddening at times. But that doesn't mean we don't need to do it and we are doing it and you're right, there is risk that comes with it. And there's, there's risk that comes with having these conversations and I think it's important to note that this conversation that we're all having and that you're all present for is happening after you've exited. This conversation probably wouldn't have happened within the context of the Org as we saw with the DEI committee. The optics of having that committee would really serve them during the time, but then when it came down to Lainie and I, you and I talking about the great work that you all were doing in that group. And then the ramifications of that, which is that Org leadership and again, larger leadership in the culture, has to actually become accountable once those conversations start happening. And then when that accountability is up, we're just gonna cut it off at the knees. Like this isn't happening anymore. That silencing is such a massive part of the cult dynamics that we speak to. So.
Maxx Boyd:Mm-hmm.
Candice Schutter:Which is why I wanted to have you all here to have this conversation because you're the voices that have been silenced in this space and in the larger culture. So. Since we, um, we dropped the little nugget at the very beginning, I feel like we have to touch upon it because it came out, it eked out, um, Lainie, you eked it out. The, the she, the Org being a she, let's upon. Oh,
Maxx Boyd:Yeah.
Candice Schutter:That, especially for people who maybe aren't familiar with the Org, that in like materials, and in conversations, and in trainings, the Org was, well, there's a little bit about this in some of the Patreon bonuses prior about how the Org was"conceived."
Maxx Boyd:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Candice Schutter:Um, leave that hanging there. You can circle back some episodes. I think it was the one with Maria Skinner, if you want to hear about that, the way we talk about.
Maxx Boyd:The like TMI moment.
Candice Schutter:Yeah, the TMI moment, um, where learn about the Org's"conception."
Maxx Boyd:What?
Candice Schutter:the Org was given a gender though, in writings, in conversation. Org was a she, and I'm really curious. I don't know what y'all have to say about that.
Maxx Boyd:I mean, would it be anything else?
Candice Schutter:Exactly.
Maxx Boyd:Like, I mean that's the whole thing, you know. I mean it's like that whatever, whatever it is that makes Marissa say the Org is a she,'cause I think that's probably coming from Marissa, is everything that is Marissa is, that's a whole thing.
Candice Schutter:Right. That's right. Troy, did you have something? I can see you do. I know your face. I know you.
Troy McCall:I, I, I'm almost speechless simply because these, these conversations leave me speechless, right? Because what else would the Org be, right? So, of course, the Org is a she. What if the Org was a he? What would that mean? What happens in your mind if you say, what, what happens in your mind? I mean, we are so programmed, right? But, but I also wanna bring it back to that there's, you know, there, there's reasons why we're programmed. I mean, it, it goes back to the beginning, right. You know, so I was born. You were born. You were born. I was born a certain way. I was conceived a certain way. That's not the only way. But there is an aspect of a binary. We can't say, there's not an aspect because if I say there's not an aspect, there's nothing to make a non-binary. So we could take out every single shorthand word, whatever we have. As far as I'm concerned, there's still a sperm and there's still an egg. Okay? So I can't take those, those away. They still exist. And it's why we're so deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply ingrained. It, it's so deep that it's beyond our words. But if we can go as deep as it is, it is beyond our words. And, and that's the whole point. And it's kind of like once you get to that place, it's like, who the fuck cares? Can we be in this space and move? I don't fucking care if this is masculine and this is feminine. I don't fucking care. I, don't care. Because it's so deep within us. We're stuck in the culture. And that our culture though is an effort for us to communicate with each other. But what I don't, what I don't appreciate is when branding and marketing controls us. But at the same time we are controlling it. So it's like, why weren't Raul's pants up there? Those were the coolest darn pants in the whole world. I'm like, put Raul's pants up there. I might buy a pair. Right? But no, they were specially made for Raul and none of us could participate in it,'cause you know, there's not enough people who are gonna buy Raul's pants, and wear our belt buckle down here. Right. You know, I mean, Raul's Belt Buckle is a huge part of the Org. You know, and like. I mean, I have ears, okay. Everybody up in that, that brown belt was like, look at the bulge. Look at his bulge. I mean, Raul's bulge is a huge fucking part right? But as soon as it came to Mark's bulge, it had to be controlled, right? So it's still in like a context of branding and marketing, and it's gotta be this and it's gotta be that. And back to what Maxx, you know, was pointing out, it's about image. And it, once again, it's being stuck in a, in a capitalist system of image and branding, you know. And so it's like, yes, we are talking about the Org, and we're talking about all the things that, you know, a lot of people talk about in terms of like unwinding them and undoing them because it's like, beyond that though, it still comes down to my birth, your birth, all of our births. Whether it's through the act of, a sexual act or you know, like a otherly engineered type of act, which we have the science to do, something still has to merge together. Some of us are walking around in that gray space. Some of us are walking over here and walking over here. And it's, you know, Maxx and I have a very, very, very different expression at this point in our lives. We've known each other for a long time. Maxx has chosen to go in a certain way. I've chosen to go in a certain way. We have a lot of similar experiences. We have a lot of different experiences. You know, so the, those are very, very different experiences of sort of like this embodiment of those lines, right? So if you put those clothes on, it doesn't mean anything. It just is about belonging to something. And for those people, for the white, skinny, tall people that those clothing fits, you know, I believe it has helped a lot of people. But it's a sense of belonging and can belonging in a group go further than that? It's about.
Candice Schutter:Right.
Troy McCall:Our presence on this planet. You know, and maybe that is what Marissa wants this to be, but unfortunately they're just stuck in the whole capitalist branding society that we're all stuck
Candice Schutter:That's it right there.
Troy McCall:So what do you do? So, you know, what do you do if you think about like, if an organization was going to really evolve and like actually affect society, um, and wasn't going to like, just fall under like new age auspices of this speaks to the white people who are female. You know, where are we looking? What includes everybody? Is it possible a capitalist system?
Candice Schutter:That's the real question I think.
Maxx Boyd:What's really interesting to me is how, especially like, for us who, you know, came in to the practice like a long time ago, is we're talking about like the female and the white thing, and Raul is neither of those. You know, but it's like, erase, you know? It's very interesting to me. Yeah.
Candice Schutter:I think that the conversation around the capitalist system and how it's really kind of at the heart of what's motivating the choices that are being made at the Org is really important. It's something that I keep bringing us back to in the podcast, because I've been in those rooms. I've been in that room so many times in those executive meetings, and it all comes down to that system, above even the cult of gender and the importance of that. The capitalist drive that motivates the choices that get made. And when I think about Seth, haven't really talked about Seth much at all, um.
Maxx Boyd:that's where that, soon as you said that, that's what the first thing that I think of is, is that. Yeah. And I don't, I wasn't around before him.
Candice Schutter:Yeah. Neither was I.
Maxx Boyd:I don't know how influential that that part of it is, but that's definitely, know there's definitely a connection there, right?
Candice Schutter:He brought a lot of misogyny in to the way that he interfaced with the marketing. And he brought in some would argue almost like a predation type energy with the way he interacted with women in the practice, certain women in the practice. And the way he chose us. And I'm saying us because I'm one of the ones that he chose. And he, the pattern over many years of choosing and selecting someone who fits that marketing bill. And yeah, there's definitely sexism and misogyny playing into it. And he's always got dollar signs in his eyes, like, who's going to sell the product and going to marginalize anybody who's not. And I'm going to center whoever is. But ultimately I think with Marissa too, they're really looking at how to, how to make money. I mean, frankly. And it's, that's why, you know, like you're saying, Lainie, we can't separate this from the larger culture. And like, that's what actually works. I mean, wellness in general does that. Scroll through Instagram and look at, you know, the yoga teachers who have a following. What do they look like? They're Indian. They're not, you know, larger bodied or queer, Generally speaking. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but generally speaking, we all know how it goes. So yeah, in a capitalist system, it's a great question, Troy. How do we change this?
Lainie Magidsohn:Just a little question as we are an hour in.
Candice Schutter:Exactly.
Lainie Magidsohn:How do we fix that?
Candice Schutter:Let's fix it.
Lainie Magidsohn:We can do that.
Candice Schutter:We just like to, we like to leave the questions floating on this podcast. If you want to answer it, you're welcome to start your own podcast. Because we don't know.
Maxx Boyd:Well, yeah. Well, what I think is interesting just about like the whole cult of gender thing is just how even, you know, even as I felt the way that I felt growing up. But you know, I was born in 1975, like, you know, things were the way they were, and there wasn't the language that that exists now. And so even within that, I have my own like binary gender stuff related to like how I feel. Because I grew up where I was like, you know, I didn't want anything to do with anything pink, and I still really don't, you know. And it's just like those types of things, right? But like, the younger generation, you know, the kids these days, I mean, it's like, it's all over the place. And you know, it's just gonna be really interesting to see how that changes. And I, when I say the kids these days, it's all over the place, you know? Definitely, I'm talking about more so, you know, people that have access to certain resources and in, in cities and have the language for that type of thing and all of that, right. But, um, but it's like, yeah, it's just, it's different because there's parts of it that I have so much ingrained in me, even though I don't subscribe to like traditional gender roles. But yet my brain does actually. You know, like in some regards it's still there, you know? And so it's just really interesting to me, like just that whole, like the culture cultiness of that, because it's about society, you know? It's not about, you know, there's the things that my mom said or my family said to me, but that was because of society. It wasn't because they personally like had an investment in me being a better girl or whatever, you know? Yeah.
Candice Schutter:Yeah, yeah. Well, as we're talking about how to fix it, and again, we're not going to figure it out, obviously, what came to mind for me was Mark sharing about in his, again, in the podcast, 60 and 61. Mark planning and coordinating and producing these events that centered the experience of men, like they were for men. Org classes for men. And the ways in which that was really fruitful in terms of starting conversations around gender and providing a space to folks that are otherwise not being represented. And yet, even in that, I also think about the story he told that sort of sparked him wanting to do that of being in an event that was led by a trainer who was focusing on the mama cell. And it was all about the feminine and him feeling like he didn't have a place there. And there was all this stuff about the mother cell and the, and the egg and the, all that. And I was saying to him, that's so interesting. I probably would have walked out of that. That doesn't speak to me at all. I'm not a mother. I don't like, it's just what? And so, I say this because I think about even when we, the efforts I think that people make to be inclusive. Or even if you do an event where it's like, it's going to be a Pride event. I think what ends up happening is that whatever the group is, like the impression would be that Troy and Maxx have the same experience. Because they don't identify in the binary. There's like in the binary and then there's out of the binary. And that there's a universal experience over here, right? Or that lesbians all have the same experience or whatever. It's like, we're sort of fumbling along trying to figure out how to do it differently. Where we sort of step on these other landmines. That's why I'm so inspired by these new generations, too. Like, they just keep, they just keep fucking adding letters. They're like, we're just gonna add letters until your heads explode. Because there shouldn't be any fucking letters. I just love that. Because there's infinite expressions of this, and how do we inch our way toward creating spaces where we're providing that kind of inclusion. Even as like you say, Maxx, we have this wiring in our brains.
Maxx Boyd:Well, and we're, we're Gen X. No labels. No labels. That was like the Gen X thing. No labels. And like, you know, but then they're like, no, no, no, but what's your label? They're like, oh, okay. But I'm like, but language is good, you know? And like it's all words that someone made up, right? I mean, everything is made up.
Candice Schutter:Maxx, when we were talking about, when we were talking about those special events, you said, okay, great. Men of The Org. What about the non men?
Maxx Boyd:Right.
Candice Schutter:What about the non women? What about us? And I just thought that was so poignant.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah. And I mean, I remember having a conversation with a couple of the men of the Org and, and about like, you know, yeah you should come. And like, and, and kind of being like, yeah, that'd be fun. You know, and then being like, no. Just like, no, I don't. Yeah, no. Well, and there's also like, accountability in, like, not knowing. You know, so like you said, like be willing to do it. Being willing to be like, you know what, I know this isn't right. I know these aren't the right words. But like, how are we gonna figure that out? You know? And um, just like, I think, you know, part of what we're having a conversation about is, is about that openness. And you know, the other side of it is this like resistance to like, I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't say anything wrong. These are just the ways things that we've been saying for, you know, or whatever. And so I think that's really part of what this, like younger generation is like, willing to do. They're like, they're willing to talk about things and they're willing to at things in a different way, and..
Candice Schutter:Yeah, well, and you know, it makes me think also of sort of something we didn't fully touch upon, which is a big part of what permeates wellness culture, culture in general, is the perfectionism and the way that that sort of stems from white supremacy. And this unwillingness to be messy. Is this gripping, white knuckle grip on perfectionism. And you've got these generations, these younger generations that are like, okay, let's dismantle this shit. Let's pull it apart. Let's make a big mess on the floor and we're going to deconstruct this shit out of this. And yeah, we're not going to have answers. That's the point. We're in the process of deconstructing. And then, I've been guilty of this as well, like tell me what to do. How do I do it differently? Right. And it's like, that's not helpful. I don't need to get this perfect and get it right. I need to stay curious and open and be in conversation around it. And I think just naming the perfectionism that is at the heart of our training model at the Org and in a lot of cultures where there is a right way to do everything, is really an important piece of deconstructing this. And, and understanding that, yeah, it's going to be messy. And like you say, Maxx, can we say, I don't know how to do this differently. I think it's just such a larger conversation around the ways we're conditioned to get it right and the ways we, when we don't get it right, we make more of a mess of thing trying to clean up the mess instead of just letting it be there and doing the best we can.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:I was thinking of another thing. This is probably totally out of order, but when you were talking about the men of the Org, I remember when that first event happened. And I thought, Oh man, I would love to see how they're handling this because my understanding is that many of those men were gay, are gay. And I was super curious about what the Org was going to do with a room full of gay dudes. And like how that was going to impact like just how that, how it would get, I don't know, spun. And then it sort of got me thinking about all of the, you know, overwhelmingly female Org events I had been in. And not necessarily like my local classes, but big HQ classes and, you know, times that I had been in big events or times that they had come to Toronto. And there's so much buzz and so much energy and so much flirtation going on on the dance floor. Like massive amounts of homoerotic energy between straight women. And it was like, in some respects, it was beautiful, right? Like, here are all these women who I know are straight getting to play around with that. But then I'm and I'm very out and very public about being queer. And feeling like, oh, I don't get to do that. Because it will be perceived differently. Right. Because if I dance flirt with you. You're going to think I'm really flirting with you and I might be. Or I might not be. Um, but it definitely like it, I had to. I, I felt the need to, you know, pull myself back that extra little bit. Just because of my own queerness and for fear of how that would be perceived on a dance floor full of flirty straight women.
Candice Schutter:Troy, I have to hear from you on this one.
Troy McCall:I noticed Maxx and I were kind of laughing. And I was, I was, having a memory. I was having a memory and I, Candice, I feel like I've pointed this out. I pointed this out to you a couple of times during the class maybe, when all of a sudden everybody was like a lesbian, and.
Candice Schutter:You did.
Lainie Magidsohn:Where are they all? Why can't I get a date?
Maxx Boyd:Well, I mean.
Troy McCall:All of a sudden, all the veils were gone away and, you know, there's this like homoerotic energy between women who, you know, married to their husband women. You know, and it was like, what's going on? What's going on here? What is this about? Why is this, why is it okay right here? Why is this okay right here? Is it just finally there's an opportunity to be able to express this. But once we leave this room, it's just like, as if no one was having that experience and nobody says anything. But it would be very uncomfortable I think for those who identify, you know, that way, sort of like outside in life to just to just like, bust that out during a class, right? But, so it's that control. I mean, it's, it's that control of the space that's unspoken. So that if the straight world says now it's okay for you to be gay for like an hour, go for it, right? It's still that norm, though. It's still in play. It would be a little uncomfortable. I actually don't really identify as queer. I don't really have a title right now. I don't have an expression. So I'm sort of speaking just from an observational situation, whereas I feel like I had maybe more of an expression at that time. Or maybe I had an identity that, you know, I could stand and watch and go, what in the world is going on here? Why is this okay here? Right? I just wanted to point that out, because I think Lainey was really like naming that. That that was like part of the space for an hour. And and it's somehow connected to all of that. It's connected to what's considered okay.
Maxx Boyd:Mm-hmm.
Troy McCall:within, within what was already defined, you know? And I think it points to why Lainie said, Lainie felt uncomfortable. Because that's actually maybe something that, you know, is for real for Lainie, right? But somehow it's okay for this hour for these people because they're straight I guess. So It's not for real. It's only for show. Is it for show?
Lainie Magidsohn:It's for show? It's part of the, I mean. We could probably start discussing Foucault, which I don't really want to do. But it's part of like the policing of gender. And there are also places in which it's okay to let off steam, so that it doesn't get too out of control. Right? And this is way beyond the Org. I'm not talking about the Org at all right now, and I don't want it to be part of, you know, of anything. But like, I mean, I'll give another example. I'm Jewish. And in, like, Orthodox Judaism, men and women are not supposed to wear clothes of the opposite, quote unquote, opposite gender. Right? Like, it's very, you know, women wear these clothes and men wear these clothes. But there is one holiday in the year. It's a bit like Halloween, where you dress up, you can wear anything you want, men can dress like women, women can dress like men. And it's like the ancient rabbis were going, okay, we know we need to give a little controlled space where you can let off this steam so that you can control the rest of the year, literally, right?
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:Um, yeah, but it's an interesting thing. Like, we have all of the ways that things get policed by each other. Like, we don't even need to have a cult leader or police or whoever to to police it for us. We do it to ourselves, right? We decide how all of these things need to be controlled and we control ourselves and each other.
Candice Schutter:The call is coming from inside the building. That's right. That's right.
Maxx Boyd:When I moved to Portland, I was in a relationship with someone who worked for the Org. And there were trainings obviously as you know, and people would come and they would spend a week training, and then at the end of the training, it was like cocktail hour. And everybody would like meet and you know, go out or whatever. And so, you know, I would get invited to these. And I would joke with my partner at the time, all the time about it because it was like, a week of these trainings, you know, seeing some of these people here, here and there. I, you know, I've met some of these women, I know some of these women. And then all of a sudden they have a few drinks on that Friday night, and then they wanna like go out dancing and they're like all flirty and whatever, you know? And, you know, I'm just like, you know, my response in those situations, especially then, and I don't know how I would respond today because I'm a different person now, but like, was just more like a little giggly, like 12 year old boy. So I would just be like whatever. But it was like fun but like, yeah, it was kind of weird. It was kind of weird but it was like, but I would just joke about it, you know? And I would be like, man, I, you know, I would joke about it. I would be like, man, these Org events, they all turn into three beer queers, like, like, I. But it was like, one of those things where I was, and I, I don't like, that's an expression that was used and it could be considered very disrespectful to some people. So I don't wanna, put that out there. But it's, yeah, I dunno.
Candice Schutter:Mm-hmm.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah. It was just it was in, yeah, it was a very regular event.
Candice Schutter:Mm.
Troy McCall:I know, and I'd be getting all uncomfortable. I'd be like, oh, I don't know. I just don't know what's going on. I had, I felt like uncomfortable, but I guess that's just like that. I have like this Puritan side of me I guess so I just I'm like, whoa. Oh, whoa I don't know. I'm uncomfortable now. Stop.
Candice Schutter:Oh my gosh.
Maxx Boyd:I no longer drink alcohol. At the time of these events, I was drinking alcohol, so I was a little more okay with it. But I think today I would, yeah, it would be very strange.
Lainie Magidsohn:That reminds me of something else. Again, I don't know if this fits here anywhere. But there was this whole period and I don't know if it continued. But I remember a period of several years where there was this narrative about Org divorces, where so many women would start the practice, and after a certain amount of time, they would divorce their male partners. And the, and the sort of narrative was, you know, this practice helped me find myself and be able to express myself and finally leave a relationship that wasn't good for me. And that very well may have been true. I do not know. What I do know is that what happened at the end of trainings. And the end of every training was always like taking the Org home, right? And I remember very clearly Raul saying on, on our last day of, I think, Brown Belt, when you go home, just know that nobody's going to understand what you've been been through.
Candice Schutter:Oh yeah.
Maxx Boyd:Yeah.
Lainie Magidsohn:Not gonna understand.
Maxx Boyd:Don't break up with anyone.
Lainie Magidsohn:So just ask them how their week was and don't expect to, right? Like, but it felt like this very, you know, we're special, we're different. You're not gonna be able to share this with your partner or your family or your whoever. and that kind of fed into the like, you know, we're different, we're special. We, and and maybe you should get divorced I dunno. I don't know where I'm going with this, but it was just like, there was something rankled there. Um, and there, was this whole story about all the divorces.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Maxx Boyd:Well, and like that sounds so freaking culty as hell. But like,
Candice Schutter:it
Maxx Boyd:I remember being like, oh yeah. I mean, I get it. Like, you know, I don't wanna overwhelm anybody else, you know?
Candice Schutter:They're not gonna understand. It's just too vast and deep and. Yeah. And there's even a section in the manual. We spoke to it in one of the episodes. There's actually a section in the manual. I don't know what the manual says now. I'll just say. The manual that I have from eons ago, there's like a list of things that get said about the Org that aren't true, and of course it's like number two on the list is that the Org is a cult. And then it's like, you know, the counter argument to that. But in, in and around that same section, there's something about the going home part. And how to deal with going home to your loved ones after seven days of being in this like movement practice. And, and what that does, like, I think that's very real, Lainie, like what that does to the relationships at home. And I will say though, I can speak from personal experience to some of this prior to even attending a training, just going to the classes. I wasn't married at the time, but I was, I had been in a three-year relationship. I left my three-year relationship shortly after starting the Org practice. And in part due to, is it okay Troy if I share a little bit? Is that okay? Partially due to the attraction that I had to Troy and the relationship that we ended up creating together, that lasted a couple years. So I think there's, there's something very real that happened between us. There was things, my, I didn't leave a dysfunctional relationship. It was actually very, pretty healthy relationship. Um, it wasn't that I needed to get out and the Org was like my key to the door to escape the, no. It wasn't that at all. But I do think there is something to be said to what happens in embodiment, and getting in touch with the nuance of our own gender expression and sexuality and the different things that that brings up. And playing with that and being, I was fortunate enough to meet Troy and, and I got to experience that in a relationship in real time. And, you know, coming into it as somebody who identified as straight at the time, it was very discombobulating. And so I guess I have this sort of empathy around these, these women who are in these groups and they're like, oh, I get to do this for like an hour. This is amazing. You know, because it's like, it's about the expression of something inside of us and relating to humans in a more nuanced and complex way. It's not about the binary. For me, I should say. For me, it's not about the binary and my gender expression of my sexuality. It is about that sort of more, for me, more pansexual experience of life. And I think that even before I went to a training, I know, that before I even went to a training, I completely blew up my relationship at home shortly after doing the practice. And I've always wondered, you know, how much of that was a function of the connection that Troy and I had naturally? How much of that was the function of the cultiness of the Org? How much of it was a, a function of me just being embodied for the first time and just getting to know myself on a whole other level? It's so complex and I just wanted to name that because all of this, this conversation, it's all tangled together, right? When we get in our bodies, what comes alive in us, it's all kind of a mystery. But yeah, those relationships, the impact on relationships outside probably happened for very different reasons. And I just wanted to share how it was for me. Yeah.
Troy McCall:I just, I really appreciate this conversation. And, um, you know, really takes that mirror back on the Org and experiences that we've had. One thing I want to there's. Interest for the men of the Org to talk and talk about their experience, also. That's just something that through our conversation, I was like, wow, I would just love to hear that voice and even all the things that we talked about how those pieces land for them, you know? So anyway, um, I guess that's all I wanted to say.
Candice Schutter:I love that. I appreciate that. Yeah. Open invitation to all you men out there. I don't know how many of you are. This has been part of the issue with la, something Lainie and I were talking about of, like, the insular nature of the Org and attempting to deconstruct a lot of these things and having this like really homogenous group of people to choose from to do it with. Which I love all of you. All of you out there who are white women in wellness. But there's like so many of us and like then there's like these really small little subgroups. And I'm like, we really, really, really want variant perspectives. So thanks for saying that, Troy. I appreciate it.
Troy McCall:Yeah.
Candice Schutter:Any other final thoughts?
Maxx Boyd:Just thanks every, you know, thanks for for showing up and you know, it's just great to be here and talk to y'all and.
Candice Schutter:Yeah.
Maxx Boyd:have this conversation. Yeah.
Candice Schutter:Thank you, Maxx.
Lainie Magidsohn:Same. thank you very much for including me. It was a real joy to talk to all of you. I guess the last thing I want to say, Candice, is thank you for your bravery over the last year or whatever it's been. That's, uh, it's amazing.
Candice Schutter:Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate that. And.
Troy McCall:I second that.
Candice Schutter:Yeah. Well, thank you all for your bravery. It's, it's, tremendously courageous to show up in spaces that are homogenous, and to have a voice in those. So, I mean, yeah, there's bravery in what I'm doing, and also I have privilege to do it. And so I also just wanna really center everyone who's been marginalized and silenced and say that I know, um, it's even harder for you. And I honor you and bow to your courage. So thank you for saying that, Lainie, I will let it in. And also giving it right back to you. Right back to y'all. So thank you so much everybody. Thank you everyone out there.
Maxx Boyd:Thank you.
Candice Schutter:Once again, I want to offer my gratitude to Maxx, Troy, and Lainie for their brave insights. Personally speaking, I feel forever indebted to those who've had far more courage than I. To walk in the world as they are, to defy norms and to remind me, and all of us, that identity and agency can and must be self determined. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, remember that you can find more'cult'ure series bonus content over at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. And huge thanks to all of you out there who've already signed up and are supporting this work. I'm deeply grateful. I'll see you next time.
