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Patreon Preview - Lost Years & A Call To Action | Jill Pagano

• Candice Schutter

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Deconstructing Dogma is a video bonus series hosted exclusively on Patreon. Patrons of The Deeper Pulse have unlimited access to these weekly extras in exchange for their support of the podcast. Patreon donations help keep the main feed of this pod authentic and ad-free.

This week’s Patreon Preview features excerpts from bonus episodes DD #31 & #32 where former 'Org' trainer, Jill Pagano, shares about her time in the practice. The complete two-hour convo is available to monthly patrons of the pod. 

In it, Jill shares:

  • What it's been like listening to the podcast & why she chose to step forward at this time. 
  • How she became involved in 'the Org' practice + the grief, loss, and physical pain she experienced when she chose to step away.
  • Her feelings about investing 13 of her prime earning years in the Org; she shares about the long-term impact on her and her family.

The three of us discuss:

  • The financial realities of hosting trainings for the Org.
  • How compliance and 'fawning for favor' in the training environment kept many out of the direct line of fire, but did emotional damage nonetheless. 
  • The idea of "badmouthing" the practice and how infantilizing it is to be told what we can and cannot say; good-girl conditioning be damned!
  • What a 'call to action' might actually look like when it comes to addressing culty dysfunction in the wellness industry at large. 
  • And why the three of us agree that 'saviorship' isn't likely to come from within,

You can access the full convo at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. 

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The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates.

Candice Schutter:

Deconstructing Dogma is a video bonus series hosted exclusively on Patreon. Patrons of The Deeper Pulse have unlimited access to these weekly extras in exchange for their support of the podcast. Learn more at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experiences and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization. You're about to hear excerpts from Deconstructing Dogma episodes 31 and 32. Where Tracy and I sit down with Jill Pagano. Jill is a former teacher and trainer at the Org, who joined us for a two hour conversation to share about her time in the practice, her choice to step away, and to offer a rather timely call to action. Here's a quick sample.

Jill Pagano:

So all to say that even though I felt like I was more conscious of how I stepped out, I still had a lot of the same feelings of like, oh my gosh, I've lost my community. I've lost my practice. I lost my fitness. I lost like, just the endless losses. And that's when, I mean, hearing what you had to say, and it resonated so deeply, and it helped me put so many pieces in place. And then once those pieces got in place, it was like, oh, the pieces of my heart are in place. And now I'm like, F you Org. I don't wanna spend another minute thinking about you. Which is why it took me so long to do the podcast because I was really tormented. Like, I don't wanna talk about this anymore. I'm so effing over it. And I don't like, screw it. I'm going on. You know? So there was like this little bit of this fight in between me. It was like, I don't even wanna give another moment of my time to that organization and those people who ran it.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

But here I am. Not, and it's not about me giving them more time. This is about me now taking back my time and, and thankfully having you guys to guide me to share what I learned from being in that organization and my journey of stepping out. And if it helps somebody else step out. If it helps someone else go, oh, now I feel like this, then I'm all up for that.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

And my contributions to the community, not to the Org. So when I hear people say, oh, well not that it wasn't that bad or this or that, like, I get it. It's where they're at and it's what they need to say. And I have been that person. So I have compassion for that. But I'm here to say that all three of us would not be like on the edge of our, you know, emotional edge here.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

If it wasn't super messed up.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

And that's why I think they can just stop brushing it off. Because you have intelligent, articulate, emotionally educated women, and a few men of course, that are saying, shoot, I'm having these like massive, where I'm dissociated from my body, where I'm feeling all this shame. I still have it 15 years later.

Tracy Stamper:

Yes.

Jill Pagano:

Well, you can't tell me that it's nothing.

Candice Schutter:

Exactly. That's right.

Tracy Stamper:

Thank you.

Jill Pagano:

So, take responsibility. The founders need to take responsibility for their shitty job in educating people. They have no. They have no, no qualifications for educating people in the way. And they certainly should not have educated based on fear. Which is what is just irritates me to no, get out because of all the like, oh, choose love. Well stop educating based on fear. Because that's what they did. And they did it.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

Every training.

Tracy Stamper:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah. That's true.

Jill Pagano:

That is wrong.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

It's wrong. And they deserve to be held accountable for that. And they keep doing it, I'm sure.

Tracy Stamper:

And not only are the three of us sitting here talking about black holes in memory or that the visuals are there, but. For the three of us that are here now, there are, up until this point I've been saying dozens, but Candice? Hundreds.

Candice Schutter:

I, I have no idea because fors for every message we receive, who knows how many more there are of people who aren't reaching out, who have been impacted.

Tracy Stamper:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

And many of them saying like, well, it wasn't as bad so I just didn't think to even say anything. So I know there's a lot of people out there who are like, oh, well, I didn't have an experience like Mark's. Or I didn't have an experience like, you know, Candice's or whoever's. I wasn't called out in a mask ceremony like Shannon.

Jill Pagano:

Right.

Candice Schutter:

And yet, the experience that I just described being in a training where somebody's being abused, and I blacked out completely.

Jill Pagano:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

That's an experience that any one of many thousands of people could have had.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

That could have left a mark. And that's one instance, one example of many things that happened over the course of seven days.

Tracy Stamper:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

So it's impossible, like you're saying, Tracy, it's impossible for us to really calculate.

Tracy Stamper:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

The harm.

Jill Pagano:

The whole power over dynamic was almost a hundred percent of the time. Like, I think she's asking me this, or I think Raul is asking me this, but maybe they're not. Because maybe they're just seeing how I would respond to that. I mean, there was, I personally felt like I was in a constant state of like, well, do you really want this answer or are you looking to see if I respond? Like constant high alert. How am I supposed to respond to this?

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

I mean, I know the reasons why I come with that vulnerability.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

But they definitely exploited that vulnerability.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

Like I take responsibility for my vulnerability.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

But they were in the position of teachers. And they, whether they were conscious of it or not, who, no one will ever know.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

But they definitely exploited it.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

Continually.

Candice Schutter:

Agreed.

Jill Pagano:

For years. Over thousands of people.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

And potentially thought they were doing good with it. And were never open to hearing that they weren't.

Candice Schutter:

That's the key.

Jill Pagano:

Always turning a blind side to it.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

So when people kind of go, well, they didn't know. It's like, yeah, but how do you respond when somebody comes to you with an authentic criticism or an authentic, boy, I felt a little weird about this. Like, are you open into reflection and like, oh, thank you. Or are you just, don't bring this to me. This is how we, you know, this is the training. That's what it would be turned around as.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

Well, this is how you're gonna be better at whatever this principle or that principle. It would always be turned around to, this is about you not being good enough. I'm fine. You are coming to me with this problem about me, but it's really about you. Which I think we know now is gaslighting.

Candice Schutter:

Yes, we do.

Jill Pagano:

And power over abuse.

Candice Schutter:

That's right.

Tracy Stamper:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

And when they operate that way 75% of the time, you begin to think it's normal.

Candice Schutter:

That's true.

Jill Pagano:

Not you. I, and I think others do.

Candice Schutter:

I think so.

Tracy Stamper:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

It begins to become the normal way.

Candice Schutter:

After Jill shares about her first few years in the Org, she opens up very candidly about how and why she decided to become a trainer, and how when she opened her own studio, despite what she'd been promised, the investment in the Org never really mathed out. So how long did you have the studio and what was the, like how did that?

Jill Pagano:

The first studio opened summer of 2011. I opened my Center for Movement and Healing in 2012, and I sold it in 2018. So six years.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

And I stopped teaching the body of work about a year before I sold it.

Candice Schutter:

Oh, okay. And what led to you stopping teaching?

Jill Pagano:

I mean, I was fortunate at that time I was working with a money coach. Because I was like, how is it that I'm not making any money? How is it that I'm not saving any money? I'm, you know, I'm not earning anything. And she was very instrumental in just being, I mean, there was definitely emotional stuff tied to it. I learned a lot from her about the underearning and why, you know, and giving time away for free. Like, there was a lot of that. But she also was very like, okay, you're gonna track your expenses. You're gonna project your expenses, you're gonna, you know, project your revenue. Like we got, I was like in my money, like I was in it every, you know, I was in the studio. I knew exactly what we were spending, exactly what we were projected to earn. I knew what was coming up next month. Like I just was all in my money. And she helped me do that. I worked with her for two years and she was pretty neutral about the Org. And though she was very like, I just don't see how. But what I learned through her helped me to see, I can't make a sustainable living if I'm working with people who are not financially responsible. And that is when I, when I left the Org, that is the letter I wrote to them. Which I wish I had a copy to Seth and Marissa, I can't find it. But I was like, this is impossible. The way that you guys are financially. You don't have the ability to run an organization financially. I don't care how brilliant you are in other ways. I can't rest with you constantly running sales. And I just never know what's coming. by then I was done, my body was done. I didn't feel like teaching anymore. I was tired of being broke all the time. I was tired of, you know, my partner, who's now my husband, was just like going, I mean, he was so graceful the whole time. He supported me. I mean, when I sold my studio. Thank gosh I was able to get money for it. But I spent 13 years investing in the Org, investing in the body of work. And those are 13 of what it would've been my prime earning years. So I'm 57 looking at retirement and there is none of that money. And I used a lot of my own money. So after my divorce, I had money you know, at my fingertips and that I was always an investment. I used it. I didn't go on fancy trips, I didn't buy new cars I invested it in the Org.

Candice Schutter:

I just appreciate so much, Jill, that you spoke to that. It's like a, a punch in the gut, I'm sure to a lot of folks out there. And I feel this even in just, wow. It's just really landing for me. Thank you for that. That's a really beautiful and gut wrenching reflection.

Tracy Stamper:

Jill, as you were talking, I'm thinking, I don't necessarily believe that any teachers in your community said that. That you were badmouthing. I just.

Jill Pagano:

I mean, what, what even is that?

Candice Schutter:

Well, that's the real thing. That's the real rub here. And that's the thing I wanted to just take a minute. Because it's like what's happening right now? Like right now.

Jill Pagano:

Are we all bad mouthing the Org?

Candice Schutter:

I guaran-fucking-tee you that's the story.

Jill Pagano:

Yes, it is.

Candice Schutter:

There's all these people out there. And fucking Candice, like after everything I did for her. I can hear the whole thing. Like I know exactly what the story is that she's telling herself about me, and all of us and anybody who's showing up. There's so many more and more of you are becoming so brave and like chiming in on social media posts and just saying what you think.

Tracy Stamper:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

It's not badmouthing to voice your opinion.

Jill Pagano:

And what if it was? Who fucking cares?

Candice Schutter:

There's that, too.

Jill Pagano:

I mean, you can badmouth the president. You can badmouth.

Candice Schutter:

Free speech, baby.

Jill Pagano:

Your coffee. You can badmouth. Like guess what? You are allowed to have a negative opinion about the Org. About Marissa. About Seth. You are allowed to say, I don't like them. I think they're terrible at business. I think their education is based on fear. I think they, I can say something good. I think they kind of try, they try. I think they're totally money grabbing right now. Like I'm allowed to have all of these opinions.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

I could be posting them on social media. Like that's not necessarily illegal either. Like guess what, Marissa, you're not the queen that says,"you were bad. I think you were badmouthing."

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

So what?

Candice Schutter:

Right.

Jill Pagano:

That's allowed. Sorry. Is that gonna bother you that I'm badmouthing your precious Org? That you've worked so hard to put and protect on this pristine image of all that you are. Which is even another conversation about the image of the Org.

Tracy Stamper:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

That doesn't match the experience of many, many, many people. But I'll leave that for later, for another time. But yeah, so there's this big thing about like, if you badmouth, like that's like a big shame thing. Like you're not allowed to badmouth the Org. Guess what? I'm not in it. I can say whatever I want.

Candice Schutter:

Oh my God. Thank you for that so much. It's like the, it's the good girl. It's the good girl indoctrination.

Jill Pagano:

Yes.

Candice Schutter:

That's a hundred percent what it is. You're so right.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

Of like, don't, what are? Naughty.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

Naughty, naughty.

Jill Pagano:

That's not be polite.

Candice Schutter:

Be polite. It's not polite.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah. You shouldn't badmouth the Org. What the hell?

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper:

And what do you actually think the chances are right now that Candice as you just mentioned, that Candice is not being badmouthed. Zero. I'm gonna guess that the chances that I am not being badmouthed.

Jill Pagano:

Oh honey.

Tracy Stamper:

0.0.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Tracy Stamper:

And Jill, you are right in there with us. We are all being badmouthed. That is an assumption that I am willing to make.

Candice Schutter:

I think so.

Jill Pagano:

I'm willing to make it too.

Candice Schutter:

Yes.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

It's not really possible for this short preview to do this conversation justice. We go so many places in it, but I've decided to share with you one of the most potent excerpts. When Jill offers a call to action, not just to the Org, but to wellness culture in general. It's honestly one of the best ideas I've heard thus far. Give it a listen.

Jill Pagano:

When I was emailing you Candice I was like, oh, I feel like we need to address a call to action. Because I do feel like without a call to action, I feel like I'm just bitching into the oblivion, which I have done a little bit on this program. Thank you. But for me, uh, a call to a call to action is about like, almost like the bigger picture,'cause I can get really sucked into the Org, but I know that there are like 50 dozen orgs. Like there's one on every street corner. I mean, I personally signed up for this MLM while I was in the Org'cause you're gonna try and make money. And then, you know, the Org also had another woman that they were aligned with, and you could fly to New York and do her stuff. And I did that and anyway, so it's out there. And there are kind of two things that I think about in terms of what the really, the wellness and the woo industry could start to look at adopting. And unfortunately we have two other types of cultures that we can look at. Like I say, unfortunately, one is the Catholic church and what happened with all the sex abuse cases with priests and, and parishioner children. And my kids went to Catholic school and when I volunteered, I had to go through an orientation to learn about what grooming looked like. It was online and it was in person. In order to be a volunteer, I had to know the red flags so that I could watch.

Candice Schutter:

Great.

Jill Pagano:

And be eyes. My children went through and this was I think fourth grade, where the teachers went through and educated them on. It was a program that the Catholic church adopted as part of their penance, for lack of a better word, is that, okay, we will be doing this to educate our parishioners, our volunteers how to act and also how to watch for grooming. So that's one example that's out there. Sadly needed, but it's out there now.

Tracy Stamper:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

Um, the other one is also very sad. And that's an organization currently funded by the federal government, and it's called SafeSport. It's the Center for SafeSport I believe. And this came out of all the sexual and otherwise abuse from the US Olympic gymnastic organization, Larry Nassar.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

So after that whole tragedy, that is probably replicated in other sports, but we know of that in this one, there was a governing body that is funded through the government and they created a SafeSport organization. They have a database that anybody can go in. I went in and looked to see who has been flagged and has an open case against them. Is the case open and being investigated against this coach?

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

Have they been suspended? So. And then they have an educational model that is for coaches, and it also is for players.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

So that we can all learn what grooming looks like. Coaches can learn what's acceptable. Like what, because a lot of coaches have been coached by people who are not doing it right. They were emotionally abused. And then they go and become coaches and they think they're coaching well. They don't know that they're using these manipulative tactics. So they have to be deprogrammed to look at their own stuff and at least change their coaching model. So there's an education around that. And I really feel like wellness in general, could use like a safe group. Like if you're gonna go to Tony Robbins, you're gonna go to, you know, the organization, if you're gonna go and do a personal growth thing, that they are a safe group, that they've got safe group compliance.

Candice Schutter:

Right.

Jill Pagano:

Which means that that organization.

Tracy Stamper:

That's brilliant

Jill Pagano:

They took the training.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

If you sign up for a week training with them, the first thing you get is a safe group video on what to watch out for In group dynamics. And I mean, I know it's hard. But like Candice has been so brilliant in saying like, this is what love bombing is. This is like. There's probably gotta be top five things that if I had just maybe known those.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

And the organization that I was looking into becoming a member sent that to me. And that organization was trained and had exposure so that they could better understand how their teaching methods were teetering in unsafe waters or were very much in it.

Candice Schutter:

Yep.

Jill Pagano:

And if they got their trainers that kind of trained in safe group. And then they were actively promoting that everybody who signed up for their trainings, you had to watch this video series before you could attend. I just think that would've been huge, a huge help for me. Because education is the, is definitely the start of it, for not only the people who are using these manipulative tools. If they're really earnest about doing things well, they'll be open to learning how to undo it.

Candice Schutter:

Exactly.

Jill Pagano:

If they're open to that, I can have compassion for what they have done. If they're not, then they don't deserve my compassion.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

Because then they're just gonna keep making their same mistakes over and over again.

Candice Schutter:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

And if they're not willing to protect the people who have signed up for their trainings and their classes by sending them, you know, a series of three videos to help you educate on the dynamics of groups, then clearly they're not looking out for their people.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

And then it is clearly just a money grab.

Candice Schutter:

Well said.

Jill Pagano:

That's what I mean. If I can wave a magic wand, that's what I'd do.

Candice Schutter:

I think it's a beautiful vision. And in the examples you gave, with the gymnastics organization, for example, and the coaches and in sports in general. I think the key thing that I just really wanna emphasize is that those programs and curriculums can't be created within the organization that is employing the dysfunctional dynamics. There has to be an outside force. So I, I wanna name this because I know I've mentioned before that when the series first started, the COO of the Org reached out and wanted to talk with Tracy and I, and was wanting to acknowledge the trauma we'd experienced and other people, and can we sit down and talk? And I want everyone to really understand why I said no. Like Tracy said, no, because she was still pretty raw.

Jill Pagano:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

And just, I agreed to handle the communication on behalf of the both of us. But I said no because, and I did my best to articulate this, like so many people have come into the Org to be the savior of the Org. And you can't save the Org if you're indoctrinated into the Org. It's just not possible. I don't care how great your intentions are. I don't care what a good person you are, how intelligent you are, what other training you came into it with. If you're indoctrinated into the headspace of it, you can't be the one who has the vantage point and the ability to see. Because like you say, we're perpetuating these dynamics. And, and I had also, you know, full disclosure heard stories about this particular individual perpetuating these dynamics in her own community before she even moved into the position of COO.

Jill Pagano:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

And I say this with compassion. I'm not throwing her under the bus here. I'm just saying this is common.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

So I didn't feel like, this is a person I'm gonna sit down with and hash out how the Org can stop being culty, because I knew that this wasn't the way it was gonna happen.

Jill Pagano:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

And secondly, I also knew, and I also communicated this, it doesn't matter what she does to try to get everyone else on board, let's say that she somehow did call in a consultant. Let's say she called Janja Lalich and said, Janja Lalich come sit down with me, and let's make a plan for how to all the things you just talked about, Jill. If the people who are at the top of the pyramid, namely Marissa and Seth, aren't on board for it and aren't accountable. And this has happened a lot in the Org, where they're like, we're gonna bring an expert in. They've had so many consultants come in. It's happened so many times that, I mean, I might have even come off as callous to her in a way because I was just like.

Jill Pagano:

Yeah, like, yeah, honey, no.

Candice Schutter:

I've seen so many times. Yeah, it's not. You're not gonna do it either. I'm sorry, it's not gonna happen. Because I know that they're not willing to be accountable. And if they're not, it's not gonna change. And then, so some people are like, well, well when, when Marissa passes, then we'll. You know, it's like this is a systemic massive undertaking to shift this culture. Like it is massive. And I think it would take what you just described, Jill, an outside, perhaps governmentally funded, perhaps a nonprofit organization that offered the ability to train, and to certify and get this like, safe space Whatever.

Jill Pagano:

Mm-hmm.

Candice Schutter:

To come in and, but they would have to agree to that.

Jill Pagano:

Right.

Candice Schutter:

And then they would have to do the difficult. And it's like anti-racism the Org's done this, which every company's seems to do now. We have a DEI now, and we're gonna, you know. And it's like, well, who's leading it?

Jill Pagano:

Yeah.

Candice Schutter:

Who's leading it? And, and I know that your intentions are great. And I know that you're doing the best that you can based on the information that you have and the three books that you read or whatever. And I say this with somebody who's totally guilty of all this.

Jill Pagano:

Right.

Candice Schutter:

I really want people to understand who are really just devastated that the COO is now gone, and she was gonna save it. And I just wanna say, she wasn't.

Jill Pagano:

No. It's the magic pill formula thinking. Like, we just need a magic pill and it'll save this.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Jill Pagano:

And it's not gonna happen. We absolutely have to look outside of it. That's the only way we learn.

Candice Schutter:

Exactly.

Jill Pagano:

Because when I was inside, I wouldn't have believed any of this.

Candice Schutter:

Mm-hmm.

Tracy Stamper:

Yeah.

Jill Pagano:

And when people say, is there a cult dynamic in the Org?? Well, if people are describing they're either in or out, there is. Like, that's the bottom line. If people are describing, I mean either in it or out it, then there definitely is a cult dynamic. And that goes for other organizations as well.

Candice Schutter:

As I said, there's much more to this convo. If you'd like to access the complete two hours, in addition to three dozen other bonus episodes, and show your support of the podcast, head over to patreon.com/thedeeperpulse.

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